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Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
Posted: Wed July 15, 2020 5:45 pm
NYUCK NYUCK NYUCK
Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 3:35 pm Posts: 32368 Location: Buenos Aires
I am loath to side with my good friend Burt on a conversation about race but if I'm honest I never understood the "it's impossible to be racist against whites" take; not only does it strike me as especially americentric but it also seems to rely on a definition of the word "racist" that is a fair bit removed from how it is used and understood in common parlance, one that posits that the "systemic" modifier (like how we're using it in this thread title) is inherent to the word itself
Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
Posted: Wed July 15, 2020 5:49 pm
Looks Like a Cat
Joined: Wed April 20, 2016 7:11 pm Posts: 14300
Jorge wrote:
I am loath to side with my good friend Burt on a conversation about race but if I'm honest I never understood the "it's impossible to be racist against whites" take; not only does it strike me as especially americentric but it also seems to rely on a definition of the word "racist" that is a fair bit removed from how it is understood in common parlance, one that posits that the "systemic" modifier (like how we're using it in this thread title) is inherent to the word itself
the dictionary was recently modified to accommodate this:
_________________ "The fatal flaw of all revolutionaries is that they know how to tear things down but don't have a f**king clue about how to build anything."
Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
Posted: Wed July 15, 2020 5:50 pm
NYUCK NYUCK NYUCK
Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 3:35 pm Posts: 32368 Location: Buenos Aires
But also, there is no "the dictionary" as a single monolithic figure, and dictionaries are by nature descriptive and not prescriptive, so that's not really relevant
Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
Posted: Wed July 15, 2020 5:55 pm
Future Drummer
Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 8:08 pm Posts: 2874
Its more that someone like Nick Cannon only has that power once someone realizes that he is actually rich and famous. Many black celebrities have stories of being pulled over/harassed, the situation escalating, and it only de-escalating once the cop realizes "hey, you're ---------." This happens all the time, and the natural question is "what would have happened had that Black person not been rich and famous?"
Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
Posted: Wed July 15, 2020 6:00 pm
An enigma of a man shaped hole in the wall between reality and the soul of the devil.
Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 5:13 pm Posts: 39878 Location: 6000 feet beyond man and time.
Bi_3 wrote:
BurtReynolds wrote:
Brainwashed
It's that weird distinction between societal prominence and individual power. For some reason people with extreme power as individuals (e.g. multi-millionaire celebs like Mr. Cannon) are seen as less powerful than arbitrary members of what is currently the majority group (e.g. some laid-off coal miner living in a trailer). I don't understand it.
None of this matters because being a racist has nothing to do with how much power you have.
Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
Posted: Wed July 15, 2020 6:01 pm
Future Drummer
Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 8:08 pm Posts: 2874
White people can certainly be victims of bigotry and intolerance.
Does it affect their ability to get a home loan? A job? Does it affect the medical care they get? Does it affect how teachers treat their children in schools? Does it affect how they are treated should they choose to protest? Does it affect how they are treated while legally carrying a gun? Does it affect how they are treated in a court of law?
The answer is usually "no," which is where that thought process comes from. If you actually think about the mechanisms of how race works in America and don't just take it at face value, it makes a lot of sense.
Its more that someone like Nick Cannon only has that power once someone realizes that he is actually rich and famous. Many black celebrities have stories of being pulled over/harassed, the situation escalating, and it only de-escalating once the cop realizes "hey, you're ---------." This happens all the time, and the natural question is "what would have happened had that Black person not been rich and famous?"
Exactly. To further your point, it's not even limited to "rich and famous." We don't need to look any further than Arturo Holmes II.
Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
Posted: Wed July 15, 2020 6:05 pm
An enigma of a man shaped hole in the wall between reality and the soul of the devil.
Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 5:13 pm Posts: 39878 Location: 6000 feet beyond man and time.
Orpheus wrote:
White people can certainly be victims of bigotry and intolerance.
Does it affect their ability to get a home loan? A job? Does it affect the medical care they get? Does it affect how teachers treat their children in schools? Does it affect how they are treated should they choose to protest? Does it affect how they are treated while legally carrying a gun? Does it affect how they are treated in a court of law?
The answer is usually "no," which is where that thought process comes from. If you actually think about the mechanisms of how race works in America and don't just take it at face value, it makes a lot of sense.
Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
Posted: Wed July 15, 2020 6:06 pm
An enigma of a man shaped hole in the wall between reality and the soul of the devil.
Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 5:13 pm Posts: 39878 Location: 6000 feet beyond man and time.
durdencommatyler wrote:
Orpheus wrote:
Its more that someone like Nick Cannon only has that power once someone realizes that he is actually rich and famous. Many black celebrities have stories of being pulled over/harassed, the situation escalating, and it only de-escalating once the cop realizes "hey, you're ---------." This happens all the time, and the natural question is "what would have happened had that Black person not been rich and famous?"
Exactly. To further your point, it's not even limited to "rich and famous." We don't need to look any further than Arturo Holmes II.
Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
Posted: Wed July 15, 2020 6:09 pm
Future Drummer
Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 8:08 pm Posts: 2874
Do you have any substantive reply to what I actually wrote? Do you think whites and blacks have the same experiences with the systems described above? This is what we're actually discussing.
Have any of the white people here ever actually had to deal with discrimination in any of these areas? Or are your feelings getting hurt because you get called names sometimes?
Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
Posted: Wed July 15, 2020 6:12 pm
Looks Like a Cat
Joined: Wed April 20, 2016 7:11 pm Posts: 14300
Orpheus wrote:
Its more that someone like Nick Cannon only has that power once someone realizes that he is actually rich and famous. Many black celebrities have stories of being pulled over/harassed, the situation escalating, and it only de-escalating once the cop realizes "hey, you're ---------." This happens all the time, and the natural question is "what would have happened had that Black person not been rich and famous?"
That's different. The situation you are describing is systemic racism, which is certainly real, but does it's existence mean that individual racism (the combination of bigotry and non-group derived power) does not exist? In this case he was exercising his unique platform to voluntarily send hate speech into the world. That is power + bigotry, right?
_________________ "The fatal flaw of all revolutionaries is that they know how to tear things down but don't have a f**king clue about how to build anything."
Its more that someone like Nick Cannon only has that power once someone realizes that he is actually rich and famous. Many black celebrities have stories of being pulled over/harassed, the situation escalating, and it only de-escalating once the cop realizes "hey, you're ---------." This happens all the time, and the natural question is "what would have happened had that Black person not been rich and famous?"
Exactly. To further your point, it's not even limited to "rich and famous." We don't need to look any further than Arturo Holmes II.
Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
Posted: Wed July 15, 2020 6:15 pm
An enigma of a man shaped hole in the wall between reality and the soul of the devil.
Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 5:13 pm Posts: 39878 Location: 6000 feet beyond man and time.
Orpheus wrote:
Do you have any substantive reply to what I actually wrote? Do you think whites and blacks have the same experiences with the systems described above? This is what we're actually discussing.
Have any of the white people here ever actually had to deal with discrimination in any of these areas? Or are your feelings getting hurt because you get called names sometimes?
Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize you got to dictate "what we're actually discussing". I'll just keep discussing what I want though.
Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
Posted: Wed July 15, 2020 6:17 pm
Future Drummer
Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 8:08 pm Posts: 2874
Obviously what he said is idiotic and unfortunate. The ravings of one moron don't really matter against 400 years of racism though, at least to me.
Y'all have this thing where one idiot is supposed to be an effective counterpoint to centuries of suffering, and sorry, i just can't give a shit. Is anyone listening to Nick fucking Cannon? No.
But lots of black people are dead who shouldn't be. It's called perspective, and it's why I can't take some of yall seriously. White people typically have to go digging for this shit. It comes to black people's homes and murders them.
Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
Posted: Wed July 15, 2020 6:18 pm
Future Drummer
Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 8:08 pm Posts: 2874
BurtReynolds wrote:
Orpheus wrote:
Do you have any substantive reply to what I actually wrote? Do you think whites and blacks have the same experiences with the systems described above? This is what we're actually discussing.
Have any of the white people here ever actually had to deal with discrimination in any of these areas? Or are your feelings getting hurt because you get called names sometimes?
Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize you got to dictate "what we're actually discussing". I'll just keep discussing what I want though.
I'm offering a very genuine answer to the topic that was posed. You're saying "LOL NOPE!" Do you have anything substantive to say?
Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
Posted: Wed July 15, 2020 6:19 pm
mXn
Joined: Thu January 24, 2013 4:32 am Posts: 20906 Location: Surrounded by Wokes. Please send help.
I think I’ve posted here before about how I will occasionally get a huge stack of resumés for a job opening and at some point I will have to find something to use as a filter, so I will go to the person’s name.
To be perfectly clear I have no filter for nationality or race. I am purely after people whose parents were unfortunately douchebags and named their kid something like Atlas or Vedder.
Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
Posted: Wed July 15, 2020 6:20 pm
An enigma of a man shaped hole in the wall between reality and the soul of the devil.
Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 5:13 pm Posts: 39878 Location: 6000 feet beyond man and time.
"No one's listening to Louis Farrakhan guys it's all just in your imagination. People's very right to exist is at stake don't discuss this! etc etc etc"
Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
Posted: Wed July 15, 2020 6:25 pm
Future Drummer
Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 8:08 pm Posts: 2874
BurtReynolds wrote:
"No one's listening to Louis Farrakhan guys it's all just in your imagination. People's very right to exist is at stake don't discuss this! etc etc etc"
Adress what I wrote. Do White people experience discrimination and racism in the areas of housing, law, medicine, criminal justice and politics in the same measure that Black people do? What the fuck does a fringe figure like Farrakhan have to do with any of that.
You do your dumb little quoting thing because at the end of the day you know your fringe bullshit and strawmen can't stand up to actual reality.
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