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 Post subject: Re: NIMBYism
PostPosted: Sat August 10, 2019 9:44 pm 
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Dscans wrote:
I see two types of Nimbyism. There's "ew, poor people. Get them away." Then there's the type where people are worried about their property values. The latter is a solid argument.

I listened to a good podcast with Matt Yglesias and a woman from the Brookings Institute about housing. The woman (I think her name was Jen Schuetz or something) said that one of the problems is that so many people have the majority of their wealth tied up in their homes. So there's this fragility to any policy that would harm people's nest egg. And I don't know that there's an easy solution.
There's plenty of crossover between those two types. I can think of multiple people I know who have flat out said that they don't want renters living next to them for fear of declining property values. And it can get nastier if there are racist/xenophobic sentiments added on.

But I do agree that this is the core sentiment that fuels NIMBYism. And as far as I can see, the sentiment just needs to be defeated. Your desire to obtain high investments on your property should not trump other people's desire to live where you live, and for other property owners to build what they need to serve that desire.


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 Post subject: Re: NIMBYism
PostPosted: Sat August 10, 2019 9:52 pm 
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Are we talking about gentrification, historical landmark designation, or the desire to keep prisons/nuclear power plants/refugee camps out of my neighborhood?

I thought NIMBY was only for the latter.

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Last edited by BurtReynolds on Sat August 10, 2019 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NIMBYism
PostPosted: Sat August 10, 2019 9:52 pm 
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BurtReynolds wrote:
Are we talking about gentrification, historical landmark designation, or the desire to keep prisons/nuclear power plants/refugee camps out of my neighborhood?

yes


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 Post subject: Re: NIMBYism
PostPosted: Sun August 11, 2019 5:35 am 
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There's a decommissioned golf course that's being turned into botanical gardens in a low income neighborhood just south of me, but the residents aren't happy about it. I'm guessing it has to do with flooding since it's along a bayou. Certainly the residents wouldn't want that space to go to more flood-prone housing?


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 Post subject: Re: NIMBYism
PostPosted: Sun August 11, 2019 3:24 pm 
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washing machine wrote:
There's a decommissioned golf course that's being turned into botanical gardens in a low income neighborhood just south of me, but the residents aren't happy about it. I'm guessing it has to do with flooding since it's along a bayou. Certainly the residents wouldn't want that space to go to more flood-prone housing?
Here in Boise we have a golf course that may go belly up, and the nearby residents there want it to be some type of open space. They'd likely be thrilled with a botanical garden.


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 Post subject: Re: NIMBYism
PostPosted: Sun August 11, 2019 4:24 pm 
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Looking more and more into it, it’s easy to see why the neighborhood has a problem with what you or I would likely consider a boon for the city’s quality of life. It’s very tricky, because on the surface, this project looks really cool if the neighborhood concerns are heard.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.housto ... 616937.php

After some reading, what you’re describing in Boise sounds a little different than what’s going in here. This looks like an instance where the park was dreamt up and the golf course was closed to make way for it. “Decommissioned” makes it sound like the course just went to seed. Big difference, because closing the course signals a pattern of ignoring the current landscape of that community.

Consider this:

-There is no evidence on the plans of this project that current access by foot or bicycle across the bayou will remain public, essentially planting a giant compound smack dab in the middle of neighborhood thoroughfares.

-The cost of a ticket to this thing will likely be much higher than a tee time to a public golf course. The property taxes will go up, no doubt.

-More parking and other impermeable structures feels ominous along the bayou, given our city’s recent catastrophic flooding events.


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 Post subject: Re: NIMBYism
PostPosted: Mon August 12, 2019 1:05 pm 
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This issue is hitting my neighborhood right now. An empty funeral home at the end of our street is being turned into a drug and alcohol rehab facility. Some people aren't thrilled with it as their backyards are right up against it and of course worry about having recovering addicts nearby. Never mind the fact that there are about 4 bars within walking distance and they worry less about actual drunks than they do people who want to better their life.


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 Post subject: Re: NIMBYism
PostPosted: Mon August 12, 2019 2:14 pm 
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One thing that might help color the dialogue around this facility: is it a compulsory program, or court-ordered? Residential or out-patient? Big difference in the types of people and behavior they’ll draw.


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 Post subject: Re: NIMBYism
PostPosted: Mon August 19, 2019 7:01 pm 
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Here's a general point I've been trying to make related to this issue.

If you were to say "sorry, the United States is full", you'd likely (and rightly) be branded as xenophobic/racist. But if you were to say "sorry, [my city] is full", that would hardly generate much negativity, and some might even laud you for your sentiment.


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 Post subject: Re: NIMBYism
PostPosted: Mon August 19, 2019 7:19 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
Here's a general point I've been trying to make related to this issue.

If you were to say "sorry, the United States is full", you'd likely (and rightly) be branded as xenophobic/racist. But if you were to say "sorry, [my city] is full", that would hardly generate much negativity, and some might even laud you for your sentiment.


We kinda fight here b/c people who work here can't afford to live here. "We need more development so there is workforce housing! Home values need to go down, just not mine!"

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 Post subject: Re: NIMBYism
PostPosted: Mon August 19, 2019 9:18 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
Here's a general point I've been trying to make related to this issue.

If you were to say "sorry, the United States is full", you'd likely (and rightly) be branded as xenophobic/racist. But if you were to say "sorry, [my city] is full", that would hardly generate much negativity, and some might even laud you for your sentiment.



I just want transportation options to keep up with development. If anything there's never enough housing for regular income people and I can't see anyone building anymore of that where I am. Neither are they increasing or smoothing the ability to safely move about. No one seems to care about that.


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 Post subject: Re: NIMBYism
PostPosted: Wed August 21, 2019 11:55 am 
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Slate Star Codex had a long post about this. https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/10/01/steelmanning-the-nimbys/
He basically argues that it's unreasonable to expect housing in San Francisco to keep up with growth, even without zoning regulations.

It sucks because the most productive cities are also the most expensive to live in. And moving is expensive too. So it's a really shitty time to be a low skilled worker.

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 Post subject: Re: NIMBYism
PostPosted: Wed June 17, 2020 3:54 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: NIMBYism
PostPosted: Wed June 17, 2020 4:08 pm 
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I don't like that particular catalog, not sure there's much difference between the two. But the NIMBYism I've regularly seen, both in New England and now in MT, is along economic/educational lines: "I know that (affordable housing/wind turbines/needle exchange programs) are helpful for group X, and we should advance their presence! Just not anywhere near my property line!"


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 Post subject: Re: NIMBYism
PostPosted: Wed June 17, 2020 4:16 pm 
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Is that not the aforementioned gollum stance? No needle exchange near my precious kindergarten!

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 Post subject: Re: NIMBYism
PostPosted: Wed June 17, 2020 4:16 pm 
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Which to be fair in that specific example...

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 Post subject: Re: NIMBYism
PostPosted: Wed June 17, 2020 5:04 pm 
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I’m just saying that tweet doesn’t do a good job of differentiating between the two.

Love the topic of NIMBYism though, feel free to prove me wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: NIMBYism
PostPosted: Wed June 17, 2020 5:06 pm 
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I’m just not sure the Gordon Gecko example clients as NIMBYism, smells more like tribalism to me


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 Post subject: Re: NIMBYism
PostPosted: Wed June 17, 2020 5:06 pm 
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I haven't decided if NIMBYism exists. Convince me that it does.

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 Post subject: Re: NIMBYism
PostPosted: Wed June 17, 2020 5:16 pm 
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wease wrote:
I haven't decided if NIMBYism exists. Convince me that it does.

It was super prevalent when I lived in the super liberal college town of Amherst, MA. Professors and doctoral students espousing all manner of liberal social mechanism would be the loudest voices in opposition to an ongoing affordable housing project.

Also Ted Kennedy in Nantucket — he’s all for renewable energy, except for then the turbines would be within the sight line of his home and impact his property value.

Here in southwest MT: Lots of libs pushing for more affordable housing, yet actively challenging high density apartment building projects.

Broadly speaking, I think the behavior is evidenced more frequently from the left, rather than the right.


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