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 Post subject: Re: Gender Pay Gap
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 5:33 pm 
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tragabigzanda wrote:
4/5 wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
Oh I have no opinion on this. I agree that $0.79 is the figure most often cited, but I've not looked at research closely enough to take any sort of stance on this.

[Corporations] have an interest in protecting the patriarchy and are prejudiced against women

I realize you're being hypothetical, but this feels disingenuous.

4/5 wrote:
It comes down to what's their primary interest. If it is indeed to profit, and that's usually the accepted primary motivation, well they would be spiting themselves by underpaying women.
Agreed.

4/5 wrote:
they'd be absolute fools not to take advantage of this clear inefficiency. They could significantly cut their input costs while not hampering output one bit, giving them a huge advantage in whatever they're doing.

My experience-by-proxy tells me this is false: My wife is less motivated to put in extra hours and go the extra mile when she is financially compensated less than a male counterpart (and has to put up with inane bullshit like being told she's "too emotional" when she expresses, with consummate professionalism, her displeasure at something in the workplace).

4/5 wrote:
This would increase the demand for this equally skilled female labor, driving up their wage while at the same time decreasing the demand for male labor, driving down their wage until the two converge.

Theoretically yes, but these sorts of cause/effect economic relationships are rarely so cut-and-dry. There are far more mitigating factors to consider in the wage of an individual, like local cost of living; age; time with the company and projected future; the employee's leverage during negotiations; network (are they an old friend, etc).

4/5 wrote:
As long as there remains any gap there exists the opportunity for some ruthless capitalist to profit by employing more women.
Yes.

4/5 wrote:
The only way a gap this large could persist then would mean that their love for discrimination outstrips their love of profit, which is of course the thing we've all been taught they love the most in this world. And if that were true there'd be amazing opportunities for some woman or non-women-hating man to start a company and exclusively hire women...again fixing this inefficiency before long.

False, and example: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/28/styl ... ation.html

I'm still not sure what you're driving at though. Are you saying that the pay gap isn't real? Or that it's effectively being mitigated by the free market? Or something else entirely?

You're saying that if there's a gender gap because of discrimination that it WOULDN'T create great opportunities for any prospective person/company who decides to hire women?

My point is that whatever gender gap there is very little of it is caused by discrimination as your initial post in this thread implied. Secondly, my point is that a free market in which the actors with power actually do hold anti-woman biases it would still fix the gap in a relatively short period of time as a result of the profit motive.

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 Post subject: Re: Gender Pay Gap
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 5:37 pm 
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--- wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
--- wrote:
I don't understand your brain, tragabigzanda.

Can you be more specific?

You seem more interested in extraneous details ("Why is that the 'best' [paper]?", going on and on about the legalities of setting up a corporation), but then "have no opinion" on the specifics of the issue that inspired the thread in the first place. Then you admit to not looking closely enough at the research on the gap itself to take a stance. Then you take a stance, based entirely on (again, entirely extraneous) factors you imagine are at play with a single data point, your wife.

I have no idea what broader points you're trying to make.

It seems to me you understand his brain pretty well...

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 Post subject: Re: Gender Pay Gap
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 5:39 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Gender Pay Gap
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 5:40 pm 
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4/5 wrote:
My point is that whatever gender gap there is very little of it is caused by discrimination as your initial post in this thread implied. Secondly, my point is that a free market in which the actors with power actually do hold anti-woman biases it would still fix the gap in a relatively short period of time as a result of the profit motive.

Even if you take as a given the (terrible) argument that all employers engage in discriminatory hiring/promoting/compensation practices, it doesn't follow that all of those employers will be equally discriminatory. Those amongst this group with less of an inclination to discriminate against women stand to gain at the expense of those with more of an inclination to discriminate.

Theoretically, the only way for the wage gap to exist in a world with the profit motive is for the relative discriminatory intensities to be uniformly distributed across all employers.


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 Post subject: Re: Gender Pay Gap
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 5:43 pm 
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--- wrote:
4/5 wrote:
My point is that whatever gender gap there is very little of it is caused by discrimination as your initial post in this thread implied. Secondly, my point is that a free market in which the actors with power actually do hold anti-woman biases it would still fix the gap in a relatively short period of time as a result of the profit motive.

Even if you take as a given the (terrible) argument that all employers engage in discriminatory hiring/promoting/compensation practices, it doesn't follow that all of those employers will be equally discriminatory. Those amongst this group with less of an inclination to discriminate against women stand to gain at the expense of those with more of an inclination to discriminate.

Theoretically, the only way for the wage gap to exist in a world with the profit motive is for the relative discriminatory intensities to be uniformly distributed across all employers.

So, why does it exist, ---? Cause of babies? Personality traits? Inclinations to pursue different career paths?

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 Post subject: Re: Gender Pay Gap
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 5:46 pm 
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4/5 wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
4/5 wrote:
The only way a gap this large could persist then would mean that their love for discrimination outstrips their love of profit, which is of course the thing we've all been taught they love the most in this world. And if that were true there'd be amazing opportunities for some woman or non-women-hating man to start a company and exclusively hire women...again fixing this inefficiency before long.

False, and example: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/28/styl ... ation.html

I'm still not sure what you're driving at though. Are you saying that the pay gap isn't real? Or that it's effectively being mitigated by the free market? Or something else entirely?

You're saying that if there's a gender gap because of discrimination that it WOULDN'T create great opportunities for any prospective person/company who decides to hire women?

My point is that whatever gender gap there is very little of it is caused by discrimination as your initial post in this thread implied. Secondly, my point is that a free market in which the actors with power actually do hold anti-woman biases it would still fix the gap in a relatively short period of time as a result of the profit motive.


No, I was responding to your use of the word "exclusively." It would be extremely difficult for a for-profit company to exclusively hire women, because it would run afoul of labor discrimination laws. There could be some sort of loophole with a B-Corp setup, but I am skeptical.

--- wrote:
You seem more interested in extraneous details ("Why is that the 'best' [paper]?", going on and on about the legalities of setting up a corporation), but then "have no opinion" on the specifics of the issue that inspired the thread in the first place. Then you admit to not looking closely enough at the research on the gap itself to take a stance. Then you take a stance, based entirely on (again, entirely extraneous) factors you imagine are at play with a single data point, your wife.

I have no idea what broader points you're trying to make.


I don't view that as an extraneous detail at all; you offered one paper that was not peer-reviewed and took a narrow focus as the best source of information; I offered multiple links that would offer a wide body of information because I believe that, in the absence of any sort of serious personal research in the matter, a wide body of work is a better source than a single white paper.

I spoke to the legalities of setting up a corporation because it has baring on the topic. Corporations are required to have by-laws in place as part of their governing documents, and this is precisely where a corporation would define any sort of measures that may implement to offset the gender pay gap. Without specific language to that end, corporations have no obligation that precedes the maximization of profit.

I admitted to not looking closely to the amount of the pay gap, and that I generally accepted the $.79 / $1 figure that is often cited but am totally open to that being wrong, or perhaps changed.

My stance, as it relates not only to my wife but all the other intelligent women I'm fortunate to have in my life, is that the pay gap ultimately exists because of social/behavioral mechanisms that are demonstrated in the work place, not because of any corporate laws or economic instruments.


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 Post subject: Re: Gender Pay Gap
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 5:50 pm 
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To the mild extent it exists, it isn't caused by discrimination, as has been proven over and over and over. It's one of the most patently ridiculous lies put out there.

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 Post subject: Re: Gender Pay Gap
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 5:52 pm 
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Fuck it, I didn't want to be productive at work today anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Gender Pay Gap
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 5:53 pm 
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Quote:
No, I was responding to your use of the word "exclusively." It would be extremely difficult for a for-profit company to exclusively hire women, because it would run afoul of labor discrimination laws. There could be some sort of loophole with a B-Corp setup, but I am skeptical.

Seems extraneous... His point was it's a bad idea in a free market, profit-driven organization. It ultimately is the least profitable choice and they would lose out to a less sexist company. The least sexist company wins. Ultimately this leads to fair-hiring practices, unless women are less competent... they aren't.

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 Post subject: Re: Gender Pay Gap
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:00 pm 
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I'm pleased at the absence of SJWs in this thread thus far... anxiously awaiting

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 Post subject: Re: Gender Pay Gap
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:01 pm 
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tree_ wrote:
I'm pleased at the absence of SJWs in this thread thus far... anxiously awaiting

Stop trying to start fights, tree. We are a happy little community of simple folk who are just trying to get by as best we can.

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Last edited by BurtReynolds on Thu May 24, 2018 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gender Pay Gap
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:03 pm 
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I'm happy with the mostly intelligent, fact-based arguing here, and proud to be an RMerican. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Gender Pay Gap
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:06 pm 
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Did I just coin a word?

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 Post subject: Re: Gender Pay Gap
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:10 pm 
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tree_ wrote:
Did I just coin a word?

:gomez: No. So the search function does work...

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 Post subject: Re: Gender Pay Gap
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:12 pm 
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Image

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 Post subject: Re: Gender Pay Gap
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:14 pm 
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:haha: ... always love me some Super Coen Bros...

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 Post subject: Re: Gender Pay Gap
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:15 pm 
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... did I just coin that?

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 Post subject: Re: Gender Pay Gap
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:16 pm 
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... nope


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 Post subject: Re: Gender Pay Gap
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:44 pm 
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I see a whole lot of talk of whether, and to what extent, employers collectively retain sex discrimination with regard to compensation, so I won't add to that. What I will add is another form of sex discrimination that's more social than economic that's contributing a big chunk to it:

Image

The pay gap is actually quite narrow until it chasms when women start having kids. That's because there's still a large societal norm of women becoming the primary caretakers for their children in lieu of their professional lives. So, in order to combat that, we need more men scaling back some hours of their own to help out with the kids. Or failing that, more men just need to flat out become homemakers if their earning potential is decidedly behind their wife's.


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 Post subject: Re: Gender Pay Gap
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:51 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
I see a whole lot of talk of whether, and to what extent, employers collectively retain sex discrimination with regard to compensation, so I won't add to that. What I will add is another form of sex discrimination that's more social than economic that's contributing a big chunk to it:

Image

The pay gap is actually quite narrow until it chasms when women start having kids. That's because there's still a large societal norm of women becoming the primary caretakers for their children in lieu of their professional lives. So, in order to combat that, we need more men scaling back some hours of their own to help out with the kids. Or failing that, more men just need to flat out become homemakers if their earning potential is decidedly behind their wife's.

Does this occur because of 'sex discrimination' or because couples come to this decision together, based on what they feel is the best choice? Breastfeeding is something only women can do and they feel a deeper connection to their babies than men, making it more difficult to spend time away in the early years.

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