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Which was better:
Rogue One 56%  56%  [ 31 ]
The Force Awakens 18%  18%  [ 10 ]
Equally Good 22%  22%  [ 12 ]
Haven't Seen Both 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Both Suck 4%  4%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 55
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 Post subject: Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
PostPosted: Mon January 15, 2018 3:48 pm 
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She does what she has to do, what she knows is right. Her family history is vital to that. While it’s difficult to say the same for Rey.


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 Post subject: Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
PostPosted: Mon January 15, 2018 3:58 pm 
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Yup - I understand the throughline about Jyn. But when you watch there's no moment where she struggles with it, or when she has the epiphany that this matters. IIRC, prior to her big rousing presentation to the Alliance leadership she's still not committed, and is clearly carrying a lot of baggage (understandably). The conversation with her father was transformative. But we don't see that transformation itself, just the after effects. Even having her realize this during her conversation with the leadership and convincing herself as she convinces them would have worked better.



It's difficult to say what for Rey, where her commitment to the Resistance comes from? That's clearly established from early in TFA

1. She is drawn to support/defend the downtrodden
2. She is given ample reason to hate The First Order
3. She knows what the Resistance is and is clearly drawn to it (which is why Finn pushes his lie)
4. She is looking for a family to belong to, and between Finn, BB8, the fact that the Resistance came after her, Han's rough connection to its history, Leia giving her a purpose it makes sense.


And we see all of this play out on screen.

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 Post subject: Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
PostPosted: Mon January 15, 2018 4:35 pm 
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I agree with Stip about Rey. TFA and TLJ do a fantastic job of developing her as a character. But I don't think R1 fails at developing Jyn. It's a different, shorter journey because R1 isn't an orphan/found family story.

There is no moment in which Jyn snaps to and becomes CAPITOL J Jyn. R1 doesn't adhere to The Hero's Journey the way the other Star Wars films have and as such there is no single epiphany or moment of change. It's gradual and subtle and it develops throughout her journey.

One of R1's major strengths is it's ability to totally function in the Star Wars universe while eschewing many of the storytelling traditions in favor of tropes/concepts more fitting of the sub-genre it inhabits.


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 Post subject: Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
PostPosted: Mon January 15, 2018 4:43 pm 
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They both had rough childhoods, with Jyn having the more painful one, with her mother murdered, and her father stolen by war, while Rey can’t remember. They learned to survive more or less on their own. Jyn finally gets a chance for revenge, to undo the bad her father has done, and for true purpose from this quest. All logical.

I don’t understand why Rey wants to help the downtrodden or feels drawn to the resistance. Why does she hate the First Order in the beginning of the movie? That she is looking for a family I can understand and accept.


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 Post subject: Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
PostPosted: Mon January 15, 2018 4:46 pm 
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durdencommatyler wrote:
There is no moment in which Jyn snaps to and becomes CAPITOL J Jyn. R1 doesn't adhere to The Hero's Journey the way the other Star Wars films have and as such there is no single epiphany or moment of change. It's gradual and subtle and it develops throughout her journey.

One of R1's major strengths is it's ability to totally function in the Star Wars universe while eschewing many of the storytelling traditions in favor of tropes/concepts more fitting of the sub-genre it inhabits.


Good post. I agree that Jyn isn’t a typical hero character, even if what she ends up doing is very heroic, and she does so without the use of any force.


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 Post subject: Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
PostPosted: Mon January 15, 2018 4:50 pm 
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Anders wrote:
They both had rough childhoods, with Jyn having the more painful one, with her mother murdered, and her father stolen by war, while Rey can’t remember. They learned to survive more or less on their own. Jyn finally gets a chance for revenge, to undo the bad her father has done, and for true purpose from this quest. All logical.

I don’t understand why Rey wants to help the downtrodden or feels drawn to the resistance. Why does she hate the First Order in the beginning of the movie? That she is looking for a family I can understand and accept.


She wants to help the downtrodden because it's part of her character, which they clearly show from almost moment one (helping BB8, refusing to sell him for food).

We don't know that she hates The First Order per se (though given her generally lack of tolerance for bullies it makes sense) but the fact that they start actively trying to kill/harm her makes sense. She's more about helping BB8 than hurting TFO at the start.

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 Post subject: Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
PostPosted: Mon January 15, 2018 4:55 pm 
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durdencommatyler wrote:
I agree with Stip about Rey. TFA and TLJ do a fantastic job of developing her as a character. But I don't think R1 fails at developing Jyn. It's a different, shorter journey because R1 isn't an orphan/found family story.

There is no moment in which Jyn snaps to and becomes CAPITOL J Jyn. R1 doesn't adhere to The Hero's Journey the way the other Star Wars films have and as such there is no single epiphany or moment of change. It's gradual and subtle and it develops throughout her journey.

One of R1's major strengths is it's ability to totally function in the Star Wars universe while eschewing many of the storytelling traditions in favor of tropes/concepts more fitting of the sub-genre it inhabits.



That's my issue is that I don't think it's gradual - she wants to help herself and help her father (which makes sense). Later she may want to honor her father's legacy (which also makes sense). But to the point that Jyn, a consummate survivor, engages in what is likely a suicide mission to do so, and with the assistance of the people who, in a previous scene, were established as trying to kill her father (her principle motivator). That's not gradual. There's a huge leap required to get from point A to point B, and we don't see it.

It's not that this can't make sense. It can. But there's a scene that is missing there for me, and it makes Jyn less of a character for me, and more whoever the scene happens to require to advance the plot.

The participation of Cassian in all of this at the end makes total sense within the context of the film, as does Bodhi. Both of them are seeking redemption for their sins and see this as a way to achieve it.

Baze and Chirrut generally lack any meaningful motivation. Both are fairly underwritten characters.

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 Post subject: Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
PostPosted: Mon January 15, 2018 4:56 pm 
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something I thought of watching this last night. Do we ever see any imperials with facial hair? If not, that should have given Cassian away, and this movie now officially sucks and I hate it.

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 Post subject: Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
PostPosted: Mon January 15, 2018 4:59 pm 
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stip wrote:
Anders wrote:
They both had rough childhoods, with Jyn having the more painful one, with her mother murdered, and her father stolen by war, while Rey can’t remember. They learned to survive more or less on their own. Jyn finally gets a chance for revenge, to undo the bad her father has done, and for true purpose from this quest. All logical.

I don’t understand why Rey wants to help the downtrodden or feels drawn to the resistance. Why does she hate the First Order in the beginning of the movie? That she is looking for a family I can understand and accept.


She wants to help the downtrodden because it's part of her character, which they clearly show from almost moment one (helping BB8, refusing to sell him for food).

We don't know that she hates The First Order per se (though given her generally lack of tolerance for bullies it makes sense) but the fact that they start actively trying to kill/harm her makes sense. She's more about helping BB8 than hurting TFO at the start.


Although I agree that Rey is pure of heart, you can’t really call BB8 downtrodden, he is a droid. Why would it even be a point to help him unless it was for a greater purpose?

Defending herself from being killed once involved is a given.


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 Post subject: Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
PostPosted: Mon January 15, 2018 4:59 pm 
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I agree about Blaze and Chirrut. Though, it doesn't bother me per se. Not every character should be or needs to be as completely developed as every other. They are well drawn sketches and add to the overall tone and theme. They are pleasant additions to the film.


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 Post subject: Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
PostPosted: Mon January 15, 2018 5:02 pm 
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durdencommatyler wrote:
I agree about Blaze and Chirrut. Though, it doesn't bother me per se. Not every character should be or needs to be as completely developed as every other. They are well drawn sketches and add to the overall tone and theme. They are pleasant additions to the film.


Fair enough. And again, none of these are dealbreakers. I like R1 a lot, but heir shortcomings as characters are maybe a bit more noticable to me because I'm not quite as drawn to our protagonist. Cassian is well done though, and the work done on Bodhi shows you can do a lot with these sorts of minor supporting characters.

Ben Mendehlson is a fantastic villain. He is just aces in this. Completely believable.

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 Post subject: Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
PostPosted: Mon January 15, 2018 5:03 pm 
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stip wrote:
durdencommatyler wrote:
I agree with Stip about Rey. TFA and TLJ do a fantastic job of developing her as a character. But I don't think R1 fails at developing Jyn. It's a different, shorter journey because R1 isn't an orphan/found family story.

There is no moment in which Jyn snaps to and becomes CAPITOL J Jyn. R1 doesn't adhere to The Hero's Journey the way the other Star Wars films have and as such there is no single epiphany or moment of change. It's gradual and subtle and it develops throughout her journey.

One of R1's major strengths is it's ability to totally function in the Star Wars universe while eschewing many of the storytelling traditions in favor of tropes/concepts more fitting of the sub-genre it inhabits.



That's my issue is that I don't think it's gradual - she wants to help herself and help her father (which makes sense). Later she may want to honor her father's legacy (which also makes sense). But to the point that Jyn, a consummate survivor, engages in what is likely a suicide mission to do so, and with the assistance of the people who, in a previous scene, were established as trying to kill her father (her principle motivator). That's not gradual. There's a huge leap required to get from point A to point B, and we don't see it.

It's not that this can't make sense. It can. But there's a scene that is missing there for me, and it makes Jyn less of a character for me, and more whoever the scene happens to require to advance the plot.

The participation of Cassian in all of this at the end makes total sense within the context of the film, as does Bodhi. Both of them are seeking redemption for their sins and see this as a way to achieve it.

Baze and Chirrut generally lack any meaningful motivation. Both are fairly underwritten characters.


It ended up being a suicide mission, but was not intended to be so. No more than what Luke and Rey typically engages in. They could have easily have written in an escape at the end.

Of course death was always possible, but in doing so they save billions of lives (with the help of Luke).


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 Post subject: Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
PostPosted: Mon January 15, 2018 5:06 pm 
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stip wrote:
durdencommatyler wrote:
I agree about Blaze and Chirrut. Though, it doesn't bother me per se. Not every character should be or needs to be as completely developed as every other. They are well drawn sketches and add to the overall tone and theme. They are pleasant additions to the film.


Fair enough. And again, none of these are dealbreakers. I like R1 a lot, but heir shortcomings as characters are maybe a bit more noticable to me because I'm not quite as drawn to our protagonist. Cassian is well done though, and the work done on Bodhi shows you can do a lot with these sorts of minor supporting characters.

Ben Mendehlson is a fantastic villain. He is just aces in this. Completely believable.


Agreed about Mendelsohn, and about Blaze and Chirrut. :thumbsup:


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 Post subject: Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
PostPosted: Mon January 15, 2018 5:06 pm 
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stip wrote:
durdencommatyler wrote:
I agree about Blaze and Chirrut. Though, it doesn't bother me per se. Not every character should be or needs to be as completely developed as every other. They are well drawn sketches and add to the overall tone and theme. They are pleasant additions to the film.


Fair enough. And again, none of these are dealbreakers. I like R1 a lot, but heir shortcomings as characters are maybe a bit more noticable to me because I'm not quite as drawn to our protagonist. Cassian is well done though, and the work done on Bodhi shows you can do a lot with these sorts of minor supporting characters.

Ben Mendehlson is a fantastic villain. He is just aces in this. Completely believable.

I think our only real difference is that I'm more invested in Jyn than you are and I believe her journey more than you. Which, of course, allows me to access the film more emotionally. Which means I like it more, or I hold it in higher regard. Otherwise, it seems like we're basically on the same page with the other components of the film.

It just boils down to taste and effectiveness. R1 just happens to work for me on every level. Of course, I agree that it has flaws. All Star Wars movies do. And I completely agree with that none of these flaws are dealbreakers. Far from.

Also, I'm glad you get how fucking awesome Bodhi Rook is. :heartbeat:


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 Post subject: Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
PostPosted: Mon January 15, 2018 5:10 pm 
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Absolutely vital to be invested in the characters to some degree. The more the better. And I love Rogue One.


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 Post subject: Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
PostPosted: Mon January 15, 2018 5:26 pm 
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Anders wrote:
stip wrote:
Anders wrote:
They both had rough childhoods, with Jyn having the more painful one, with her mother murdered, and her father stolen by war, while Rey can’t remember. They learned to survive more or less on their own. Jyn finally gets a chance for revenge, to undo the bad her father has done, and for true purpose from this quest. All logical.

I don’t understand why Rey wants to help the downtrodden or feels drawn to the resistance. Why does she hate the First Order in the beginning of the movie? That she is looking for a family I can understand and accept.


She wants to help the downtrodden because it's part of her character, which they clearly show from almost moment one (helping BB8, refusing to sell him for food).

We don't know that she hates The First Order per se (though given her generally lack of tolerance for bullies it makes sense) but the fact that they start actively trying to kill/harm her makes sense. She's more about helping BB8 than hurting TFO at the start.


Although I agree that Rey is pure of heart, you can’t really call BB8 downtrodden, he is a droid. Why would it even be a point to help him unless it was for a greater purpose?

Defending herself from being killed once involved is a given.



Droids have personalities and feelings. They feel anxiety and fear and gratitude. They're basically people kept as slaves. Their whole existence is actually kind of troubling, morally

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 Post subject: Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
PostPosted: Mon January 15, 2018 5:33 pm 
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stip wrote:
Anders wrote:
stip wrote:
Anders wrote:
They both had rough childhoods, with Jyn having the more painful one, with her mother murdered, and her father stolen by war, while Rey can’t remember. They learned to survive more or less on their own. Jyn finally gets a chance for revenge, to undo the bad her father has done, and for true purpose from this quest. All logical.

I don’t understand why Rey wants to help the downtrodden or feels drawn to the resistance. Why does she hate the First Order in the beginning of the movie? That she is looking for a family I can understand and accept.


She wants to help the downtrodden because it's part of her character, which they clearly show from almost moment one (helping BB8, refusing to sell him for food).

We don't know that she hates The First Order per se (though given her generally lack of tolerance for bullies it makes sense) but the fact that they start actively trying to kill/harm her makes sense. She's more about helping BB8 than hurting TFO at the start.


Although I agree that Rey is pure of heart, you can’t really call BB8 downtrodden, he is a droid. Why would it even be a point to help him unless it was for a greater purpose?

Defending herself from being killed once involved is a given.



Droids have personalities and feelings. They feel anxiety and fear and gratitude. They're basically people kept as slaves. Their whole existence is actually kind of troubling, morally

And regardless of whether or not you agree with the term "downtrodden" Rey clearly sees that BB8 is worried and abandoned and that he needs protecting. She steps up in the face of tremendous personal benefit to help someone/thing. As Stip said, droids have personalities. We are meant to get attached to them. Rey has an instinctual pull to protect a "thing" in trouble even if it means she gets less or that she starves.


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 Post subject: Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
PostPosted: Mon January 15, 2018 5:33 pm 
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stip wrote:
Anders wrote:
stip wrote:
Anders wrote:
They both had rough childhoods, with Jyn having the more painful one, with her mother murdered, and her father stolen by war, while Rey can’t remember. They learned to survive more or less on their own. Jyn finally gets a chance for revenge, to undo the bad her father has done, and for true purpose from this quest. All logical.

I don’t understand why Rey wants to help the downtrodden or feels drawn to the resistance. Why does she hate the First Order in the beginning of the movie? That she is looking for a family I can understand and accept.


She wants to help the downtrodden because it's part of her character, which they clearly show from almost moment one (helping BB8, refusing to sell him for food).

We don't know that she hates The First Order per se (though given her generally lack of tolerance for bullies it makes sense) but the fact that they start actively trying to kill/harm her makes sense. She's more about helping BB8 than hurting TFO at the start.


Although I agree that Rey is pure of heart, you can’t really call BB8 downtrodden, he is a droid. Why would it even be a point to help him unless it was for a greater purpose?

Defending herself from being killed once involved is a given.



Droids have personalities and feelings. They feel anxiety and fear and gratitude. They're basically people kept as slaves. Their whole existence is actually kind of troubling, morally


Not sure about this. Is it the same for robots in our world in 2018, or something special from Star Wars?


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 Post subject: Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
PostPosted: Mon January 15, 2018 5:53 pm 
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Anders wrote:
stip wrote:
Anders wrote:
stip wrote:
Anders wrote:
They both had rough childhoods, with Jyn having the more painful one, with her mother murdered, and her father stolen by war, while Rey can’t remember. They learned to survive more or less on their own. Jyn finally gets a chance for revenge, to undo the bad her father has done, and for true purpose from this quest. All logical.

I don’t understand why Rey wants to help the downtrodden or feels drawn to the resistance. Why does she hate the First Order in the beginning of the movie? That she is looking for a family I can understand and accept.


She wants to help the downtrodden because it's part of her character, which they clearly show from almost moment one (helping BB8, refusing to sell him for food).

We don't know that she hates The First Order per se (though given her generally lack of tolerance for bullies it makes sense) but the fact that they start actively trying to kill/harm her makes sense. She's more about helping BB8 than hurting TFO at the start.


Although I agree that Rey is pure of heart, you can’t really call BB8 downtrodden, he is a droid. Why would it even be a point to help him unless it was for a greater purpose?

Defending herself from being killed once involved is a given.



Droids have personalities and feelings. They feel anxiety and fear and gratitude. They're basically people kept as slaves. Their whole existence is actually kind of troubling, morally


Not sure about this. Is it the same for robots in our world in 2018, or something special from Star Wars?

Pretty sure he's talking about Star Wars, not the real world. But I don't want to assume or speak for him. My take on what he's saying is just Star Wars.


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 Post subject: Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
PostPosted: Mon January 15, 2018 6:12 pm 
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durdencommatyler wrote:
Anders wrote:
stip wrote:
Anders wrote:
stip wrote:
Anders wrote:
They both had rough childhoods, with Jyn having the more painful one, with her mother murdered, and her father stolen by war, while Rey can’t remember. They learned to survive more or less on their own. Jyn finally gets a chance for revenge, to undo the bad her father has done, and for true purpose from this quest. All logical.

I don’t understand why Rey wants to help the downtrodden or feels drawn to the resistance. Why does she hate the First Order in the beginning of the movie? That she is looking for a family I can understand and accept.


She wants to help the downtrodden because it's part of her character, which they clearly show from almost moment one (helping BB8, refusing to sell him for food).

We don't know that she hates The First Order per se (though given her generally lack of tolerance for bullies it makes sense) but the fact that they start actively trying to kill/harm her makes sense. She's more about helping BB8 than hurting TFO at the start.


Although I agree that Rey is pure of heart, you can’t really call BB8 downtrodden, he is a droid. Why would it even be a point to help him unless it was for a greater purpose?

Defending herself from being killed once involved is a given.



Droids have personalities and feelings. They feel anxiety and fear and gratitude. They're basically people kept as slaves. Their whole existence is actually kind of troubling, morally


Not sure about this. Is it the same for robots in our world in 2018, or something special from Star Wars?

Pretty sure he's talking about Star Wars, not the real world. But I don't want to assume or speak for him. My take on what he's saying is just Star Wars.


I’ve never thought of them that way, especially the stupid robots in TPM, and they can even talk. Of course there is some affection for R2D2 and C3PO, but even when C3PO gets destroyed it’s just a funny scene in ESB.

I think helping BB8 works greatly in Rey’s favor though, and he’s worth more than a little extra food.

IRL I certainly don’t care about machines apart from as being useful or the properties of others.


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