Being Vegan

[Norris]

because non government organizations never have an agenda

[tragabigzanda]

of course they do, but at least they can explicitly state what it is, rather than trying to dress it up as "gov't facts."

[The Argonaut]

I know you're going down this path for very good reasons, and I encourage you to continue. But it seems like you're gobbling up a lot of pro-vegan literature that is every bit as slanted as the latest Monsanto press release. Stick with the animal cruelty angle, and your stance will be much harder to argue. Animal behavior science is much more difficult to pin down, and any major consensus on whether or not sustainably raised livestock "suffer" is still way up in the air.

They defintely get killed at the end, though, right?
And most livestock is not raised in the most ethical suffer-minimizing way possible. Pointing to the kindest farm as the reason why the beef industry is OK is disingenuous when the vast vast vast vast majority of the beef produced in this country comes from factory "farms" that would make you sad to even visit.

I still have a hard time believing that "good" beef or chicken is that hard to get. There's no less than five beef stands at my farmer's market every Sunday with guys ready and willing to talk all about their meat. They'll even invite you to their land so you can take a look if you're inclined. Though as I said earlier in this thread, this might be geographic specific since I'm eating in a state with acres and acres of ranches.

It's not hard to get. But it uses more space to grow grass-fed beef. Our beef consumption would have to drop drastically for beef to be a sustainable foodstuff. I don't know exactly what, but I've heard Michael Pollan say just a few ounces per week.

[run2death]

of course they do, but at least they can explicitly state what it is, rather than trying to dress it up as "gov't facts."

A supplement review by an organization sponsored by Herbalife is completely useless in my eyes and does nothing but disseminate misinformation.

[tragabigzanda]

I know you're going down this path for very good reasons, and I encourage you to continue. But it seems like you're gobbling up a lot of pro-vegan literature that is every bit as slanted as the latest Monsanto press release. Stick with the animal cruelty angle, and your stance will be much harder to argue. Animal behavior science is much more difficult to pin down, and any major consensus on whether or not sustainably raised livestock "suffer" is still way up in the air.

They defintely get killed at the end, though, right?
And most livestock is not raised in the most ethical suffer-minimizing way possible. Pointing to the kindest farm as the reason why the beef industry is OK is disingenuous when the vast vast vast vast majority of the beef produced in this country comes from factory "farms" that would make you sad to even visit.

I still have a hard time believing that "good" beef or chicken is that hard to get. There's no less than five beef stands at my farmer's market every Sunday with guys ready and willing to talk all about their meat. They'll even invite you to their land so you can take a look if you're inclined. Though as I said earlier in this thread, this might be geographic specific since I'm eating in a state with acres and acres of ranches.

It's not hard to get. But it uses more space to grow grass-fed beef. Our beef consumption would have to drop drastically for beef to be a sustainable foodstuff. I don't know exactly what, but I've heard Michael Pollan say just a few ounces per week.

Sure, and your standard 4 oz burger would basically do that. One could eat plant-based, have eggs and fish once or twice a week, and then maybe a small hamburger grown on a rotational grazing system.

of course they do, but at least they can explicitly state what it is, rather than trying to dress it up as "gov't facts."

A supplement review by an organization sponsored by Herbalife is completely useless in my eyes and does nothing but disseminate misinformation.

Yep, those sponsored reviews are awful. I'm thinking something big, bold, and new. I actually hate the Non-GMO project labels, because GMOs can actually be really great in some cases, and the blanket idea that all GMOs are bad (and that a company should feel compelled to buy a non-GMO label to market to misinformed consumers) amounts to strong-arm tactics.

[The Argonaut]

I think GMOs are necessary, ftr. People who are automatically anti-GMO are misguided, IMO. There are a lot of people to feed out there, and in order to do that we need food that can grow in imperfect conditions, maximize land and water use, and are safer from bugs and viruses and blah blah blah.

[tragabigzanda]

I think GMOs are necessary, ftr. People who are automatically anti-GMO are misguided, IMO. There are a lot of people to feed out there, and in order to do that we need food that can grow in imperfect conditions, maximize land and water use, and are safer from bugs and viruses and blah blah blah.

You're already miles ahead of most vegans I know.

[96583UP]

[---]

I think GMOs are necessary, ftr. People who are automatically anti-GMO are misguided, IMO. There are a lot of people to feed out there, and in order to do that we need food that can grow in imperfect conditions, maximize land and water use, and are safer from bugs and viruses and blah blah blah.

i like you, you're alright

[The Argonaut]

yeah, i'm pretty cool

[---]

you could come over and i'd hook you up with some spinach, or perhaps the leafy green with which you have the fewest misgivings

[The Argonaut]

yeah yeah yeah

[tragabigzanda]

New question Argo: Where do you stand on eggs?

Consider: They are literally the hens' periods. There is no additional suffering that happens; the animals are perhaps healthier and more safe than were they left to roam in nature. The eggs could be collected as needed on a small family farm. They are full of protein, good fats, B6 & B12, minerals... And they are just sitting there, getting pooped out of the hens' cloacas left and right!

[The Argonaut]

I think hens lay about 10x more eggs when their eggs are taken from them right after laying than they would if left to their own devices. I think this is an at least mildly painful or uncomfortable process, especially when it's done almost every day instead of every couple weeks. That also puts a strain on their body over time. And, like milking cows, it's all tied to the meat industry. Farmers hatching chicks to grow into laying hens also end up hatching male chicks, who can't lay eggs, and so are sold or grown for slaughter. When laying hens are past their egg-laying prime, they're also killed.

[Monkey_Driven]

Having grown up in a rural community and been around farms/farming for most of my childhood I can say this, fuck chickens.

[tragabigzanda]

Having grown up in a rural community and been around farms/farming for most of my childhood I can say this, fuck chickens.

Nasty animals, aren't they?

[Monkey_Driven]

Having grown up in a rural community and been around farms/farming for most of my childhood I can say this, fuck chickens.

Nasty animals, aren't they?

Yes, and dumb as hell.

I happily eat eggs.

[washing machine]

That's perhaps the hottest take I've read in this thread so far. Being 100% serious here.

[tragabigzanda]

I think hens lay about 10x more eggs when their eggs are taken from them right after laying than they would if left to their own devices. I think this is an at least mildly painful or uncomfortable process, especially when it's done almost every day instead of every couple weeks. That also puts a strain on their body over time. And, like milking cows, it's all tied to the meat industry. Farmers hatching chicks to grow into laying hens also end up hatching male chicks, who can't lay eggs, and so are sold or grown for slaughter. When laying hens are past their egg-laying prime, they're also killed.

The bold part is pretty suspect. My own experiences with layers is that they love to hide them all over the place; and that a small family farm collecting eggs for their own consumption does so just once or twice a week, by searching out all the hens' hiding spots -- the hens don't seem to give a flock if anyone takes their eggs from behind a stack of plywood or something. But your second part is sound reasoning.

[Norris]

Were those experiences peer reviewed?