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 Post subject: Re: Being Vegan
PostPosted: Wed August 16, 2017 2:07 am 
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90% of B12 supplements are fed to livestock. So, you could feed a pill to a cow, kill the cow, then eat the cow...or you could just eat the pill. The vegan diet is deficient in B12 because human over-consumption and pollution has degraded the soil and because we thoroughly clean our fruits and veggies and purify our water.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Vegan
PostPosted: Wed August 16, 2017 4:12 am 
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Not all of us clean our veggies. Sometimes I need to be reminded.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Vegan
PostPosted: Wed August 16, 2017 4:23 am 
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You're getting B12 the old-fashioned way!

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 Post subject: Re: Being Vegan
PostPosted: Wed August 16, 2017 4:32 am 
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Analog vitamins!


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 Post subject: Re: Being Vegan
PostPosted: Wed August 16, 2017 5:12 am 
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The Master
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washing machine wrote:
Not all of us clean our veggies. Sometimes I need to be reminded.

same


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 Post subject: Re: Being Vegan
PostPosted: Wed August 16, 2017 5:25 am 
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The Argonaut wrote:
I'd choose the first option.

The Argonaut wrote:
At this point, the idea of eating meat is very unappealing to me.
There's really no argument against this. But...



The Argonaut wrote:
And on another level, the problem of pesticides and poor agricultural labor conditions are solvable problems. Feeding humanity with red meat is an unsolvable problem, in terms of sustainability and impact on human health.
That's not entirely true. Were a significant portion of the planet to shift to a vegetable-based diet, but still consume red meat in small portions on rare occasions, it could be entirely environmentally sustainable with the use of rotational grazing/planting, and sound management of agricultural waste. And of course human health would not be encumbered by all the saturated fat and residual growth hormones and antibiotics often found in meat if we shifted to a small portion/rare occasion. But I totally agree that under the current paradigm red meat consumption is not at all sustainable.



The Argonaut wrote:
90% of B12 supplements are fed to livestock. So, you could feed a pill to a cow, kill the cow, then eat the cow...or you could just eat the pill. The vegan diet is deficient in B12 because human over-consumption and pollution has degraded the soil and because we thoroughly clean our fruits and veggies and purify our water.


Your 90% figure needs a huge asterisk. I was very easily able to find a conflicting source that says that the world's supply of synthetic B-12 is given to farmed animals, but it puts the figure anywhere between 55-90% depending on the source, and it cites two conflicting sources:
http://freefromharm.org/health-nutritio ... lles-heel/

I know you're going down this path for very good reasons, and I encourage you to continue. But it seems like you're gobbling up a lot of pro-vegan literature that is every bit as slanted as the latest Monsanto press release. Stick with the animal cruelty angle, and your stance will be much harder to argue. Animal behavior science is much more difficult to pin down, and any major consensus on whether or not sustainably raised livestock "suffer" is still way up in the air.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Vegan
PostPosted: Wed August 16, 2017 5:29 am 
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cutuphalfdead wrote:
washing machine wrote:
Not all of us clean our veggies. Sometimes I need to be reminded.

same

I'm gonna chow down my vegetables.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Vegan
PostPosted: Wed August 16, 2017 5:33 am 
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washing machine wrote:
cutuphalfdead wrote:
washing machine wrote:
Not all of us clean our veggies. Sometimes I need to be reminded.

same

I'm gonna chow down my vegetables.

I'm red as a beet 'cause I'm so embarrassed.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Vegan
PostPosted: Wed August 16, 2017 5:37 am 
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cutuphalfdead wrote:
washing machine wrote:
cutuphalfdead wrote:
washing machine wrote:
Not all of us clean our veggies. Sometimes I need to be reminded.

same

I'm gonna chow down my vegetables.

I'm red as a beet 'cause I'm so embarrassed.

I got some pickled cauliflower at the farmers market tonight that is pretty great. He has a really good probiotic from one of his other pickle products that he recommends using in a martini. He had sold out when I came by, but I got to try a sample, and I think it actually would make a GREAT martini. So I'll be picking some up next week.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Vegan
PostPosted: Wed August 16, 2017 5:39 am 
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tragabigzanda wrote:
cutuphalfdead wrote:
washing machine wrote:
cutuphalfdead wrote:
washing machine wrote:
Not all of us clean our veggies. Sometimes I need to be reminded.

same

I'm gonna chow down my vegetables.

I'm red as a beet 'cause I'm so embarrassed.

I got some pickled cauliflower at the farmers market tonight that is pretty great. He has a really good probiotic from one of his other pickle products that he recommends using in a martini. He had sold out when I came by, but I got to try a sample, and I think it actually would make a GREAT martini. So I'll be picking some up next week.

Chomp chomp chomp chomp do-do-do do-do-do
Bop bop bop bop do-do-do do-do-do


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 Post subject: Re: Being Vegan
PostPosted: Wed August 16, 2017 5:54 am 
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washing machine wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
cutuphalfdead wrote:
washing machine wrote:
cutuphalfdead wrote:
washing machine wrote:
Not all of us clean our veggies. Sometimes I need to be reminded.

same

I'm gonna chow down my vegetables.

I'm red as a beet 'cause I'm so embarrassed.

I got some pickled cauliflower at the farmers market tonight that is pretty great. He has a really good probiotic from one of his other pickle products that he recommends using in a martini. He had sold out when I came by, but I got to try a sample, and I think it actually would make a GREAT martini. So I'll be picking some up next week.

Chomp chomp chomp chomp do-do-do do-do-do
Bop bop bop bop do-do-do do-do-do

eat a lot sleep a lot brush em like crazy


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 Post subject: Re: Being Vegan
PostPosted: Wed August 16, 2017 6:13 am 
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tragabigzanda wrote:
I know you're going down this path for very good reasons, and I encourage you to continue. But it seems like you're gobbling up a lot of pro-vegan literature that is every bit as slanted as the latest Monsanto press release. Stick with the animal cruelty angle, and your stance will be much harder to argue. Animal behavior science is much more difficult to pin down, and any major consensus on whether or not sustainably raised livestock "suffer" is still way up in the air.

They defintely get killed at the end, though, right?
And most livestock is not raised in the most ethical suffer-minimizing way possible. Pointing to the kindest farm as the reason why the beef industry is OK is disingenuous when the vast vast vast vast majority of the beef produced in this country comes from factory "farms" that would make you sad to even visit.

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 Post subject: Re: Being Vegan
PostPosted: Wed August 16, 2017 7:55 am 
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The Argonaut wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
I know you're going down this path for very good reasons, and I encourage you to continue. But it seems like you're gobbling up a lot of pro-vegan literature that is every bit as slanted as the latest Monsanto press release. Stick with the animal cruelty angle, and your stance will be much harder to argue. Animal behavior science is much more difficult to pin down, and any major consensus on whether or not sustainably raised livestock "suffer" is still way up in the air.

They defintely get killed at the end, though, right?
And most livestock is not raised in the most ethical suffer-minimizing way possible. Pointing to the kindest farm as the reason why the beef industry is OK is disingenuous when the vast vast vast vast majority of the beef produced in this country comes from factory "farms" that would make you sad to even visit.

I still have a hard time believing that "good" beef or chicken is that hard to get. There's no less than five beef stands at my farmer's market every Sunday with guys ready and willing to talk all about their meat. They'll even invite you to their land so you can take a look if you're inclined. Though as I said earlier in this thread, this might be geographic specific since I'm eating in a state with acres and acres of ranches.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Vegan
PostPosted: Wed August 16, 2017 3:07 pm 
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washing machine wrote:
The Argonaut wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
I know you're going down this path for very good reasons, and I encourage you to continue. But it seems like you're gobbling up a lot of pro-vegan literature that is every bit as slanted as the latest Monsanto press release. Stick with the animal cruelty angle, and your stance will be much harder to argue. Animal behavior science is much more difficult to pin down, and any major consensus on whether or not sustainably raised livestock "suffer" is still way up in the air.

They defintely get killed at the end, though, right?
And most livestock is not raised in the most ethical suffer-minimizing way possible. Pointing to the kindest farm as the reason why the beef industry is OK is disingenuous when the vast vast vast vast majority of the beef produced in this country comes from factory "farms" that would make you sad to even visit.

I still have a hard time believing that "good" beef or chicken is that hard to get. There's no less than five beef stands at my farmer's market every Sunday with guys ready and willing to talk all about their meat. They'll even invite you to their land so you can take a look if you're inclined. Though as I said earlier in this thread, this might be geographic specific since I'm eating in a state with acres and acres of ranches.


Same. My parents buy half a cow each year from a local farmer. It's great.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Vegan
PostPosted: Wed August 16, 2017 3:33 pm 
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Monkey_Driven wrote:
washing machine wrote:
The Argonaut wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
I know you're going down this path for very good reasons, and I encourage you to continue. But it seems like you're gobbling up a lot of pro-vegan literature that is every bit as slanted as the latest Monsanto press release. Stick with the animal cruelty angle, and your stance will be much harder to argue. Animal behavior science is much more difficult to pin down, and any major consensus on whether or not sustainably raised livestock "suffer" is still way up in the air.

They defintely get killed at the end, though, right?
And most livestock is not raised in the most ethical suffer-minimizing way possible. Pointing to the kindest farm as the reason why the beef industry is OK is disingenuous when the vast vast vast vast majority of the beef produced in this country comes from factory "farms" that would make you sad to even visit.

I still have a hard time believing that "good" beef or chicken is that hard to get. There's no less than five beef stands at my farmer's market every Sunday with guys ready and willing to talk all about their meat. They'll even invite you to their land so you can take a look if you're inclined. Though as I said earlier in this thread, this might be geographic specific since I'm eating in a state with acres and acres of ranches.


Same. My parents buy half a cow each year from a local farmer. It's great.


Which half?


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 Post subject: Re: Being Vegan
PostPosted: Wed August 16, 2017 4:28 pm 
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The Argonaut wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
I know you're going down this path for very good reasons, and I encourage you to continue. But it seems like you're gobbling up a lot of pro-vegan literature that is every bit as slanted as the latest Monsanto press release. Stick with the animal cruelty angle, and your stance will be much harder to argue. Animal behavior science is much more difficult to pin down, and any major consensus on whether or not sustainably raised livestock "suffer" is still way up in the air.

They defintely get killed at the end, though, right?
And most livestock is not raised in the most ethical suffer-minimizing way possible. Pointing to the kindest farm as the reason why the beef industry is OK is disingenuous when the vast vast vast vast majority of the beef produced in this country comes from factory "farms" that would make you sad to even visit.

:haha: That's the spirit! But I never said "Beef is ok," and I would never draw a false equivalency between a good farm and the beef industry as a whole. I just think it's important to note that your financial support of the "good meat farms" is perhaps every bit as positive as your avoidance of the bad ones.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Vegan
PostPosted: Wed August 16, 2017 4:57 pm 
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This thread, the supplement thread and the "woo" thread in N&D highlight the need for a more comprehensive government board or program to track actual regulations and procedures.

There needs to be a comprehensive site maintained by the FDA or other organization to combat misinformation from both food conglomerates and the ridiculous vegan/green groups that pump out their diarrhea. The number of times I've heard "the government doesn't even test GMOs" from people who are usually well-informed is astonishing.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Vegan
PostPosted: Wed August 16, 2017 4:59 pm 
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run2death wrote:
This thread, the supplement thread and the "woo" thread in N&D highlight the need for a more comprehensive government board or program to track actual regulations and procedures.

There needs to be a comprehensive site maintained by the FDA or other organization to combat misinformation from both food conglomerates and the ridiculous vegan/green groups that pump out their diarrhea. The number of times I've heard "the government doesn't even test GMOs" from people who are usually well-informed is astonishing.

What there really needs to be is some sort of independent scoring algorithm, sort of like the CBO does, for a given product's sustainability. It could rate goods and services on health, environment, and labor impacts. This might actually belong in the Million Dollar Ideas thread (or perhaps the Dream thread)...


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 Post subject: Re: Being Vegan
PostPosted: Wed August 16, 2017 5:14 pm 
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I just want a central resource for facts and guidance.

The average U.S. consumer has to wade through so much garbage with various agendas.


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 Post subject: Re: Being Vegan
PostPosted: Wed August 16, 2017 5:19 pm 
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run2death wrote:
I just want a central resource for facts and guidance.

The average U.S. consumer has to wade through so much garbage with various agendas.

Yes, but as we've recently seen, the standard central resource -- the US Gov't web pages -- have been overhauled to reflect the new GOP/nationalist agenda. And even if Bernie were to win the WH in 2020 and change all these sites to reflect the values I happen to share with him, that would still be incredibly slanted. Any source of this info should probably be non-government.


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