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 Post subject: Re: Black Panther (2018)
PostPosted: Mon February 19, 2018 3:10 pm 
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Bi_3 wrote:
stip wrote:
Bi_3 wrote:
stip wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
This is actually some ingenious marketing strategy. If you load up your corporate junk with concerted effort to appear racially empowering, it all but makes you invulnerable to criticism, and people think even less about shoveling their cash toward your product. I guess it makes sense that this is the only way we're truly going to make progress in America - united by artless commercialism.


i wanted to come back to this today now that im back home. There are no ideas in Black Panther that are themselves revolutionary (in that theyre new). This is not a vanguard film. But the fact that a consensus orgainization like Disney - the embodiment of mainstream sensibilities - has put this out (a movie about black cultural and social empowerment, which is what the themes boil down to), and that it has been so well received critically and with general audiences, is itself a pretty amazing thing and does speak to progress and a cultural relevance at this moment in history.



I know, right? Pretty soon white kids will be wearing the jerseys of black athletes.



If people were making the same dismissive jokes about Jackie Robinson in the 1950s I'd be responding the same way. This is a new milestone, but it isn't the first ever.


I get that different things mean different things to different people and that the idea of seeing people who look like you depicted as champions in a mainstream production is powerful in ways I can't understand. But if you are equating the social impact of a mass-market superhero movie's boxoffice success with the wall-smashing bravery of an actual, real life young black man at the height of modern systemic racism in this country, then we are simply too far apart on this one.


No, Jackie Robinson's barrier was a much bigger deal. Barack Obama's presidency was a much bigger deal. But you don't need to be the biggest moment to still be an important moment.

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 Post subject: Re: Black Panther (2018)
PostPosted: Mon February 19, 2018 3:11 pm 
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Can someone find a black person to settle if Stip is overreaching?


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 Post subject: Re: Black Panther (2018)
PostPosted: Mon February 19, 2018 3:12 pm 
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I’ll also add that saying I’m “not qualified” be critical of the cultural impact of a Marvel movie - when I have been vocally critical of the cultural impact of Marvel movies for years - simply because of the racial politics involved with this particular one, reeks of liberal race condescension.

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 Post subject: Re: Black Panther (2018)
PostPosted: Mon February 19, 2018 3:14 pm 
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Guys Black Panthers best friend is Reed Richards. Ebony and Ivory. We are going to be OK.


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 Post subject: Re: Black Panther (2018)
PostPosted: Mon February 19, 2018 3:17 pm 
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stip wrote:
jwfocker wrote:
It was a fun film, and it had a bit more to it than your standard hollow marvel movie but lets not get carried away here.



I hinted at this earlier, but since I'm sitting at an actual computer instead of my phone I'll go into this a bit more.

There are more ideas in this film than in your typical action movie (Marvel or otherwise), and I think it goes deeper than Civil War or Ultron or Winter Solider (the previous movies that were united by 'themes') but this movie isn't important or significant because of its ideas (though they are a part of the overall package). The themes are on point, but they've been explored in vastly more sophisticated ways in countless other movies, books, music, and other forms of art.

What is significant about Black Panther, culturally, is what was significant about Wonder Woman, culturally (although I think Black Panther is the better movie and the culturally significant themes are more of a fundamental part of the story than they were in Wonder Woman). What matters about both is the representation of a marginalized group in an art form where they have historically been excluded. It is very difficult to overstate how important that is to groups not used to seeing themselves on screen as main characters, as heroes. A population told to just look at the white male heroes and imagine that this is you no longer have to do that, and that matters a great deal.

There were a few comments in this thread about the trailers and how 'black' they felt and how some people found it hard to connect with that (I'm paraphrasing, but that was at the heart of the comments). And that may be true. Now imagine if that feeling of mild alienation is how you had to feel watching just about every mainstream piece of popular filmmaking. It is amplified even further when you think about the characters who are aspirational - the heroes that kids pretend to be growing up. Minority characters and female characters have almost always been supporting players in a white male story. That is why seeing Rey and Finn (especially Rey) in Star Wars was so important. it's why that joke in Stranger Things Season 2 (about the black kid not wanting to have to be Winston and wanting to be Venkmen) is on point. It is why Wonder Woman, despite being a slightly above average superhero movie, was so important to so many people. Now you can see yourself reflected in the people you see on screen. And one of the privileges of being white is not having to do that. And I won't claim to understand what it is like to not see yourself represented, and how that can feel alienating. I've never really had to deal with it. But I'm not going to be dismissive of people who have experienced, and tell them that it isn't a big deal.


In the case of Black Panther in particular (unlike, I think, WW, although I'm sure a stronger case can be made for that movie) it's not simply seeing yourself on screen. The nation of Wakanda is a technological marvel, and it is implied that it could/would be the most powerful nation on the planet if it wanted to be. It has done so while still honoring its cultural and traditions. This will be emotionally resonant for a race that has been historically marginalized, subject to a diaspora, and has a complicated relationship with its history and traditions (which have historically been devalued and made invisible). The themes about the obligations that successful members of a marginalized people have to their larger community is also particularly resonant. You can say quite a bit about the gender representation in the film as well along similar lines.

They are themes and images that we (whites/white males/first world white males) can understand intellectually, but probably not emotionally. But being dismissive of other people's emotional experience, because we don't understand it or don't feel it, does not paint a particularly flattering picture of us. Especially during the launch, during the films moment.



Easy! I'm not being dismissive. I'm a huge fan of everything the movie is celebrating.


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 Post subject: Re: Black Panther (2018)
PostPosted: Mon February 19, 2018 3:18 pm 
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LoathedVermin72 wrote:
I’m not denying anyone’s emotional experience. But I do think it’s dubious that emotional reactions are being given so much weight because the film is a corporate-backed, mainstream venture. That is capitulation to corporatized art in an unsettling way; social import really only matters when loads of money and hype are behind it. But, again, maybe that’s just what social progress looks like in capitalist America now.



I don't think Black Panther would have happened without years/decades of less 'encumbered' art and philosophy and activism behind it. Disney is not the vanguard of change. But they are one of the cultural gatekeepers of mainstream acceptance. Whether or not that's a good thing is a separate conversation. Controlling for the fact that they are, their backing behind the movie and the message is super important because of the mainstream legitimacy that comes with it. An arthouse movie with this message may be able to be even bolder. But its reach would likely be tiny. This is a massive movie with incredible reach that plants a flag for representation in the most culturally significant (in terms of reach) film genre out there right now. Again, you can bemoan that superhero tent poles occupy that position, but that's a separate conversation. They do, and so this matters.

There will eventually be an openly gay superhero who interacts with a gay partner in a blockbuster movie. And that will matter not because it will be subversive. It will matter because its representation in a film like that sends the signal that being gay is no longer, in itself, something that needs to be thought of as subversive. It will have reached that point on the back of more interesting and challenging works of art that helped move the needle, but that film itself will be able to take the victory lap.

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 Post subject: Re: Black Panther (2018)
PostPosted: Mon February 19, 2018 3:18 pm 
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LoathedVermin72 wrote:
I’m not denying anyone’s emotional experience. But I do think it’s dubious that emotional reactions are being given so much weight because the film is a corporate-backed, mainstream venture. That is capitulation to corporatized art in an unsettling way; social import really only matters when loads of money and hype are behind it. But, again, maybe that’s just what social progress looks like in capitalist America now.



I don't think Black Panther would have happened without years/decades of less 'encumbered' art and philosophy and activism behind it. Disney is not the vanguard of change. But they are one of the cultural gatekeepers of mainstream acceptance. Whether or not that's a good thing is a separate conversation. Controlling for the fact that they are, their backing behind the movie and the message is super important because of the mainstream legitimacy that comes with it. An arthouse movie with this message may be able to be even bolder. But its reach would likely be tiny. This is a massive movie with incredible reach that plants a flag for representation in the most culturally significant (in terms of reach) film genre out there right now. Again, you can bemoan that superhero tent poles occupy that position, but that's a separate conversation. They do, and so this matters.

There will eventually be an openly gay superhero who interacts with a gay partner in a blockbuster movie. And that will matter not because it will be subversive. It will matter because its representation in a film like that sends the signal that being gay is no longer, in itself, something that needs to be thought of as subversive. It will have reached that point on the back of more interesting and challenging works of art that helped move the needle, but that film itself will be able to take the victory lap.

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 Post subject: Re: Black Panther (2018)
PostPosted: Mon February 19, 2018 3:18 pm 
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On a more serious note, there was one scene that felt terribly out of place.

Right After Michael B Jordan (I will not call him Killmonger because it's stupid) robs the museum and he gets in the van with his girlfriend they just essentially start the process of going at it.

I know they were trying to quickly establish the relationship so that when Klaue captures his girlfriend we get to see his singular focus, but something about the quick raw sexuality felt like it played way into the animalistic/sex crazed view of black people in a very odd way.

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 Post subject: Re: Black Panther (2018)
PostPosted: Mon February 19, 2018 3:18 pm 
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bada wrote:
Can someone find a black person to settle if Stip is overreaching?

Where is Tolummne?!

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 Post subject: Re: Black Panther (2018)
PostPosted: Mon February 19, 2018 3:19 pm 
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LoathedVermin72 wrote:
I’ll also add that saying I’m “not qualified” be critical of the cultural impact of a Marvel movie - when I have been vocally critical of the cultural impact of Marvel movies for years - simply because of the racial politics involved with this particular one, reeks of liberal race condescension.



I may have clarified this in my post above. Let me know if I haven't. I think the conversation about where we are as a society that Marvel movies are a vehicle for this message is one thing. My point is that in the end the emotional and existential impact and experience a film has on a particular population can and should best be determined by that population itself. I can debate whether or not Wonder Woman is a good movie, but I can't tell my wife's friend for whom it means the world that she's being ridiculous for imparting so much meaning into a slightly above average superhero film.

To an extent that's the case with any individual viewer's experience and engagement with any piece of art, but there are also movies that engage with people as a group (not my experience as a particular woman or a particular black person, but as a woman, or as a black person, in general) and it really is up to that group to tell me how successful it is speaking to their experience and aspirations. We can try to understand WHY that is, but we can't argue with the fact that it IS.

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 Post subject: Re: Black Panther (2018)
PostPosted: Mon February 19, 2018 3:22 pm 
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stip wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
I’m not denying anyone’s emotional experience. But I do think it’s dubious that emotional reactions are being given so much weight because the film is a corporate-backed, mainstream venture. That is capitulation to corporatized art in an unsettling way; social import really only matters when loads of money and hype are behind it. But, again, maybe that’s just what social progress looks like in capitalist America now.



I don't think Black Panther would have happened without years/decades of less 'encumbered' art and philosophy and activism behind it. Disney is not the vanguard of change. But they are one of the cultural gatekeepers of mainstream acceptance. Whether or not that's a good thing is a separate conversation. Controlling for the fact that they are, their backing behind the movie and the message is super important because of the mainstream legitimacy that comes with it. An arthouse movie with this message may be able to be even bolder. But its reach would likely be tiny. This is a massive movie with incredible reach that plants a flag for representation in the most culturally significant (in terms of reach) film genre out there right now. Again, you can bemoan that superhero tent poles occupy that position, but that's a separate conversation. They do, and so this matters.

There will eventually be an openly gay superhero who interacts with a gay partner in a blockbuster movie. And that will matter not because it will be subversive. It will matter because its representation in a film like that sends the signal that being gay is no longer, in itself, something that needs to be thought of as subversive. It will have reached that point on the back of more interesting and challenging works of art that helped move the needle, but that film itself will be able to take the victory lap.

I mean...this is exactly what I’m saying, except you’re framing it positively. The fact that we have not just accepted - but joyously, rapturouously accepted - this “milestone” of representation simply because it is given wide reach thanks to a global corporation that is essentially the gatekeeper of visible art is deeply frightening to me. We are swallowing what they’re selling because the hype makes us feel good.

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 Post subject: Re: Black Panther (2018)
PostPosted: Mon February 19, 2018 3:27 pm 
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Yeah, I get what you're saying, and I think I said earlier that the line of argument I'm advancing doesn't really engage or reference your central critique. I'm just arguing that you can celebrate the positives of the message and the significance of the moment even if you want to bemoan the vehicle we have available for sharing it.

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 Post subject: Re: Black Panther (2018)
PostPosted: Mon February 19, 2018 3:29 pm 
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I also think there is a decent chance you'll like this movie (or parts of it). It's not as weird as Guardians, but there are moments of real visual beauty (I did not see it in 3d, so I don't know how well it transfers to that format. I tend to hate 3d anyway and only see it if I can't get an imax 2d showing)

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 Post subject: Re: Black Panther (2018)
PostPosted: Mon February 19, 2018 3:29 pm 
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LoathedVermin72 wrote:
stip wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
I’m not denying anyone’s emotional experience. But I do think it’s dubious that emotional reactions are being given so much weight because the film is a corporate-backed, mainstream venture. That is capitulation to corporatized art in an unsettling way; social import really only matters when loads of money and hype are behind it. But, again, maybe that’s just what social progress looks like in capitalist America now.



I don't think Black Panther would have happened without years/decades of less 'encumbered' art and philosophy and activism behind it. Disney is not the vanguard of change. But they are one of the cultural gatekeepers of mainstream acceptance. Whether or not that's a good thing is a separate conversation. Controlling for the fact that they are, their backing behind the movie and the message is super important because of the mainstream legitimacy that comes with it. An arthouse movie with this message may be able to be even bolder. But its reach would likely be tiny. This is a massive movie with incredible reach that plants a flag for representation in the most culturally significant (in terms of reach) film genre out there right now. Again, you can bemoan that superhero tent poles occupy that position, but that's a separate conversation. They do, and so this matters.

There will eventually be an openly gay superhero who interacts with a gay partner in a blockbuster movie. And that will matter not because it will be subversive. It will matter because its representation in a film like that sends the signal that being gay is no longer, in itself, something that needs to be thought of as subversive. It will have reached that point on the back of more interesting and challenging works of art that helped move the needle, but that film itself will be able to take the victory lap.

I mean...this is exactly what I’m saying, except you’re framing it positively. The fact that we have not just accepted - but joyously, rapturouously accepted - this “milestone” of representation simply because it is given wide reach thanks to a global corporation that is essentially the gatekeeper of visible art is deeply frightening to me. We are swallowing what they’re selling because the hype makes us feel good.


Hasn't this kind of always been the case? Mainstream art reflecting shifting cultural ideals/movements and being celebrated for it? Maybe not on this scale, but this has been done before.


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 Post subject: Re: Black Panther (2018)
PostPosted: Mon February 19, 2018 3:29 pm 
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LoathedVermin72 wrote:
stip wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
I’m not denying anyone’s emotional experience. But I do think it’s dubious that emotional reactions are being given so much weight because the film is a corporate-backed, mainstream venture. That is capitulation to corporatized art in an unsettling way; social import really only matters when loads of money and hype are behind it. But, again, maybe that’s just what social progress looks like in capitalist America now.



I don't think Black Panther would have happened without years/decades of less 'encumbered' art and philosophy and activism behind it. Disney is not the vanguard of change. But they are one of the cultural gatekeepers of mainstream acceptance. Whether or not that's a good thing is a separate conversation. Controlling for the fact that they are, their backing behind the movie and the message is super important because of the mainstream legitimacy that comes with it. An arthouse movie with this message may be able to be even bolder. But its reach would likely be tiny. This is a massive movie with incredible reach that plants a flag for representation in the most culturally significant (in terms of reach) film genre out there right now. Again, you can bemoan that superhero tent poles occupy that position, but that's a separate conversation. They do, and so this matters.

There will eventually be an openly gay superhero who interacts with a gay partner in a blockbuster movie. And that will matter not because it will be subversive. It will matter because its representation in a film like that sends the signal that being gay is no longer, in itself, something that needs to be thought of as subversive. It will have reached that point on the back of more interesting and challenging works of art that helped move the needle, but that film itself will be able to take the victory lap.

I mean...this is exactly what I’m saying, except you’re framing it positively. The fact that we have not just accepted - but joyously, rapturouously accepted - this “milestone” of representation simply because it is given wide reach thanks to a global corporation that is essentially the gatekeeper of visible art is deeply frightening to me. We are swallowing what they’re selling because the hype makes us feel good.



Exactly this.

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 Post subject: Re: Black Panther (2018)
PostPosted: Mon February 19, 2018 3:30 pm 
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@SkitchP wrote:
On a more serious note, there was one scene that felt terribly out of place.

Right After Michael B Jordan (I will not call him Killmonger because it's stupid) robs the museum and he gets in the van with his girlfriend they just essentially start the process of going at it.

I know they were trying to quickly establish the relationship so that when Klaue captures his girlfriend we get to see his singular focus, but something about the quick raw sexuality felt like it played way into the animalistic/sex crazed view of black people in a very odd way.


that's an interesting pull. It speaks to how passionate Jordan's character is (I agree Killmonger is stupid - at least they made it a code name) and the movie doesn't judge him for it. If anything it is sympathetic - nothing he needs to apologize for.

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 Post subject: Re: Black Panther (2018)
PostPosted: Mon February 19, 2018 3:31 pm 
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Monkey_Driven wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
stip wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
I’m not denying anyone’s emotional experience. But I do think it’s dubious that emotional reactions are being given so much weight because the film is a corporate-backed, mainstream venture. That is capitulation to corporatized art in an unsettling way; social import really only matters when loads of money and hype are behind it. But, again, maybe that’s just what social progress looks like in capitalist America now.



I don't think Black Panther would have happened without years/decades of less 'encumbered' art and philosophy and activism behind it. Disney is not the vanguard of change. But they are one of the cultural gatekeepers of mainstream acceptance. Whether or not that's a good thing is a separate conversation. Controlling for the fact that they are, their backing behind the movie and the message is super important because of the mainstream legitimacy that comes with it. An arthouse movie with this message may be able to be even bolder. But its reach would likely be tiny. This is a massive movie with incredible reach that plants a flag for representation in the most culturally significant (in terms of reach) film genre out there right now. Again, you can bemoan that superhero tent poles occupy that position, but that's a separate conversation. They do, and so this matters.

There will eventually be an openly gay superhero who interacts with a gay partner in a blockbuster movie. And that will matter not because it will be subversive. It will matter because its representation in a film like that sends the signal that being gay is no longer, in itself, something that needs to be thought of as subversive. It will have reached that point on the back of more interesting and challenging works of art that helped move the needle, but that film itself will be able to take the victory lap.

I mean...this is exactly what I’m saying, except you’re framing it positively. The fact that we have not just accepted - but joyously, rapturouously accepted - this “milestone” of representation simply because it is given wide reach thanks to a global corporation that is essentially the gatekeeper of visible art is deeply frightening to me. We are swallowing what they’re selling because the hype makes us feel good.


Hasn't this kind of always been the case? Mainstream art reflecting shifting cultural ideals/movements and being celebrated for it? Maybe not on this scale, but this has been done before.

Not really when it comes to movies. This concept of the blockbuster is a relatively new development, and the landscape being dominated by one corporation is unprecedented.

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 Post subject: Re: Black Panther (2018)
PostPosted: Mon February 19, 2018 3:36 pm 
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LoathedVermin72 wrote:
Monkey_Driven wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
stip wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
I’m not denying anyone’s emotional experience. But I do think it’s dubious that emotional reactions are being given so much weight because the film is a corporate-backed, mainstream venture. That is capitulation to corporatized art in an unsettling way; social import really only matters when loads of money and hype are behind it. But, again, maybe that’s just what social progress looks like in capitalist America now.



I don't think Black Panther would have happened without years/decades of less 'encumbered' art and philosophy and activism behind it. Disney is not the vanguard of change. But they are one of the cultural gatekeepers of mainstream acceptance. Whether or not that's a good thing is a separate conversation. Controlling for the fact that they are, their backing behind the movie and the message is super important because of the mainstream legitimacy that comes with it. An arthouse movie with this message may be able to be even bolder. But its reach would likely be tiny. This is a massive movie with incredible reach that plants a flag for representation in the most culturally significant (in terms of reach) film genre out there right now. Again, you can bemoan that superhero tent poles occupy that position, but that's a separate conversation. They do, and so this matters.

There will eventually be an openly gay superhero who interacts with a gay partner in a blockbuster movie. And that will matter not because it will be subversive. It will matter because its representation in a film like that sends the signal that being gay is no longer, in itself, something that needs to be thought of as subversive. It will have reached that point on the back of more interesting and challenging works of art that helped move the needle, but that film itself will be able to take the victory lap.

I mean...this is exactly what I’m saying, except you’re framing it positively. The fact that we have not just accepted - but joyously, rapturouously accepted - this “milestone” of representation simply because it is given wide reach thanks to a global corporation that is essentially the gatekeeper of visible art is deeply frightening to me. We are swallowing what they’re selling because the hype makes us feel good.


Hasn't this kind of always been the case? Mainstream art reflecting shifting cultural ideals/movements and being celebrated for it? Maybe not on this scale, but this has been done before.

Not really when it comes to movies. This concept of the blockbuster is a relatively new development, and the landscape being dominated by one corporation is unprecedented.


Blockbusters have been around since the 70's. Disney owning everything is a problem for many reasons.

Would you have as much of an issue with this film if it was produced and released by a different or smaller studio not associated with Disney? I feel like I fall somewhere in the middle of you and Stip's discussion, I'm just curious.


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 Post subject: Re: Black Panther (2018)
PostPosted: Mon February 19, 2018 3:39 pm 
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Monkey_Driven wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
Monkey_Driven wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
stip wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
I’m not denying anyone’s emotional experience. But I do think it’s dubious that emotional reactions are being given so much weight because the film is a corporate-backed, mainstream venture. That is capitulation to corporatized art in an unsettling way; social import really only matters when loads of money and hype are behind it. But, again, maybe that’s just what social progress looks like in capitalist America now.



I don't think Black Panther would have happened without years/decades of less 'encumbered' art and philosophy and activism behind it. Disney is not the vanguard of change. But they are one of the cultural gatekeepers of mainstream acceptance. Whether or not that's a good thing is a separate conversation. Controlling for the fact that they are, their backing behind the movie and the message is super important because of the mainstream legitimacy that comes with it. An arthouse movie with this message may be able to be even bolder. But its reach would likely be tiny. This is a massive movie with incredible reach that plants a flag for representation in the most culturally significant (in terms of reach) film genre out there right now. Again, you can bemoan that superhero tent poles occupy that position, but that's a separate conversation. They do, and so this matters.

There will eventually be an openly gay superhero who interacts with a gay partner in a blockbuster movie. And that will matter not because it will be subversive. It will matter because its representation in a film like that sends the signal that being gay is no longer, in itself, something that needs to be thought of as subversive. It will have reached that point on the back of more interesting and challenging works of art that helped move the needle, but that film itself will be able to take the victory lap.

I mean...this is exactly what I’m saying, except you’re framing it positively. The fact that we have not just accepted - but joyously, rapturouously accepted - this “milestone” of representation simply because it is given wide reach thanks to a global corporation that is essentially the gatekeeper of visible art is deeply frightening to me. We are swallowing what they’re selling because the hype makes us feel good.


Hasn't this kind of always been the case? Mainstream art reflecting shifting cultural ideals/movements and being celebrated for it? Maybe not on this scale, but this has been done before.

Not really when it comes to movies. This concept of the blockbuster is a relatively new development, and the landscape being dominated by one corporation is unprecedented.


Blockbusters have been around since the 70's. Disney owning everything is a problem for many reasons.

Would you have as much of an issue with this film if it was produced and released by a different or smaller studio not associated with Disney? I feel like I fall somewhere in the middle of you and Stip's discussion, I'm just curious.

Yes, that’s why I said “relatively new” - that’s only a few decades.

I don’t feel like hypothetical stuff like that is really useful. I don’t know how I’d feel because it’s a totally different situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Black Panther (2018)
PostPosted: Mon February 19, 2018 3:41 pm 
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stip wrote:
@SkitchP wrote:
On a more serious note, there was one scene that felt terribly out of place.

Right After Michael B Jordan (I will not call him Killmonger because it's stupid) robs the museum and he gets in the van with his girlfriend they just essentially start the process of going at it.

I know they were trying to quickly establish the relationship so that when Klaue captures his girlfriend we get to see his singular focus, but something about the quick raw sexuality felt like it played way into the animalistic/sex crazed view of black people in a very odd way.


that's an interesting pull. It speaks to how passionate Jordan's character is (I agree Killmonger is stupid - at least they made it a code name) and the movie doesn't judge him for it. If anything it is sympathetic - nothing he needs to apologize for.



No he doesn't. But obviously his plan was well thought out and calculating. As cerebral as it was vicious when it related to getting to Wakanda. It just felt out of place for his character to me and on some level reinforced an unfair stereotype.

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