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 Post subject: Re: Twin Peaks [2017]
PostPosted: Wed September 06, 2017 3:36 pm 
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When do we think this will be on something other than Showtime?


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 Post subject: Re: Twin Peaks [2017]
PostPosted: Wed September 06, 2017 7:59 pm 
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VinylGuy wrote:
I need to talk about the ending guys. More discussion.


Just throwing my interpretation out there:

I think the question isn't "who is the dreamer?", but "who are the dreamers?".

Spoiler: show
Clearly the Bang Bang Bar was part of Audrey's dream world, the superimposed face of Cooper over the end of Part 17 was a dream world, and we're led to believe that at least some part of the series was Laura Palmer's dream world.

Laura is the one. I think the original Twin Peaks world was Laura's dream world. She was somewhat in control and it seemed like the whole town revolved around her. This is what The Fireman intended, but as we know Bob and Judy had other plans.

Then Laura died and the dream world became Cooper's dream. In fact, he spent a considerable amount of time in season 1, 2, and FWWM talking about his dreams. Once again like Laura, he was in control and the town seemed to revolve around him.

Then Cooper was trapped in the Black Lodge. Now the dream became Audrey's dream. All of the Bang Bang Bar scenes seemed to revolve around her world and she seemed to be in charge. However, it appears that Audrey was in a coma. Hence, all the odd things happening around town - the weird rashes, illnesses, the endless infidelity. It's no coincidence that Audrey "woke up" in the same episode that Cooper returned.

Then Cooper came back at which point the dream became his again. At this point Audrey was sucked back to the actual coma world instead of the Bang Bang Bar world. Cooper made it back to Twin Peaks and was back in control and everything revolved around him. In fact, like I mentioned before the superimposed Cooper face over the whole last scene spells out that it his dream world now.

Then Cooper saves Laura and goes into another dream world that he doesn't control. I think the last episode is Judy s dream world. Once again, the important statement that "Laura is the one". Cooper awakens Carrie to the memories of Laura. Laura is the one who can destroy Judy's dream world. With Laura being awakened, the power goes out at the Palmer house signifying that the dream is back to Laura and Judy is defeated.

Of course it is very debateable if Laura defeated Judy or if Judy defeated Laura. Right now I'll choose to be an optimist.

We also saw many gateways throughout the show. I think there are many different domains of dreamers. The Fireman has his White Lodge/Mauve Zone dream world. Mike has Black Lodge. Philip Jeffries has the motel (if you haven't heard the Bowie song "The Motel", I highly suggest it - especially in light of how Jeffries character was handled in lieu of his death).


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 Post subject: Re: Twin Peaks [2017]
PostPosted: Wed September 06, 2017 8:43 pm 
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This sounds weird. I have a hard time fully articulating what I mean when I say things like this because OBVIOUSLY Lynch loves dreams and dream logic. BUT.... I really bristle at calling anything Lynch does a "dream world."


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 Post subject: Re: Twin Peaks [2017]
PostPosted: Wed September 06, 2017 9:51 pm 
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durdencommatyler wrote:
This sounds weird. I have a hard time fully articulating what I mean when I say things like this because OBVIOUSLY Lynch loves dreams and dream logic. BUT.... I really bristle at calling anything Lynch does a "dream world."


I can see that. Maybe "dream world" isn't the best term. I used "dream world" only because of how it relates to the question of "who is the dreamer?". Maybe a better way to express my point would be to replace "dream world" with simply "reality" and each person mentioned being the glue at the center of that reality.

And BTW durden I'm excited to hear your analysis when you get the chance. I really enjoy your insights!


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 Post subject: Re: Twin Peaks [2017]
PostPosted: Wed September 06, 2017 9:53 pm 
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parasolmonster wrote:
durdencommatyler wrote:
This sounds weird. I have a hard time fully articulating what I mean when I say things like this because OBVIOUSLY Lynch loves dreams and dream logic. BUT.... I really bristle at calling anything Lynch does a "dream world."


I can see that. Maybe "dream world" isn't the best term. I used "dream world" only because of how it relates to the question of "who is the dreamer?". Maybe a better way to express my point would be to replace "dream world" with simply "reality" and each person mentioned being the glue at the center of that reality.

And BTW durden I'm excited to hear your analysis when you get the chance. I really enjoy your insights!

Thanks, man. I'll try to write something up once it's settled.

And I was hoping you'd respond exactly the way you did. I thought that's what you meant. And now I can read your thoughts with more clearly and reply appropriately. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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 Post subject: Re: Twin Peaks [2017]
PostPosted: Wed September 06, 2017 10:12 pm 
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Spoiler: show
I kind of agree with the theory that's been bandied about that Coop, due to his own honourable nature, is essentially stuck in a loop (as Jeffries tried to hint at with the figure 8 image he showed), trying to save Laura forever. It's a show about deep, seemingly irreparable suffering. Sarah has become inhabited by pain to the point where she has become a portal the depths of suffering herself and is, like Coop at the end, endlessly stuck in loops, unable to escape.


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 Post subject: Re: Twin Peaks [2017]
PostPosted: Wed September 06, 2017 10:25 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Twin Peaks [2017]
PostPosted: Wed September 06, 2017 10:53 pm 
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I liked how the ending underlined the ambiguity of the motivations of the Lodge spirits. They were never, BOB excepted, explicitly helpful or harmful, rather acting in their own inscrutable interests. On some level I was troubled by Cooper's experience of them in this series, where they invariably seemed to be helping him for altruistic reasons; now, given where their help led him, I don't think that at all, which seems a lot more believable.


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 Post subject: Re: Twin Peaks [2017]
PostPosted: Wed September 06, 2017 10:58 pm 
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I'm into a theory about Coop that I heard on a podcast last night, though in understanding and now repeating it I feel like I'm about to play a game of telephone with myself with this real downer of an interpretation:

The Cooper we saw after the key was handed to him is a fully awake Cooper. Awake to the sorrow, sadness and horror of reality. Chipper Cooper of the original series, and Twin Peaks in general, is a sort of Lost Highway/Mulholland Drive type fantasy. Cooper becomes so infatuated with the town and the people because he's not awake to the horror of Judy yet. The lodge and Judy pull him in gradually in the OS, then slowly chew him up and spit him out in The Return. The overlay of Cooper's head in the Sherrif's office and the repeat of the Jeffries line about living inside a dream are key to this interpretation, and everything that happens after that is perhaps the most real thing Cooper has ever experienced. Notice how real that world looks after they trek from Texas back to Washington. There's even a hard, unfiltered shot of a Valero station.


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 Post subject: Re: Twin Peaks [2017]
PostPosted: Wed September 06, 2017 11:06 pm 
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That's interesting. But I'm not sure I can get on board with "everything that happens after that is perhaps the most real thing Cooper has ever experienced."


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 Post subject: Re: Twin Peaks [2017]
PostPosted: Thu September 07, 2017 12:03 am 
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I don't mean that in the "dream world" sense that you dislike. I mean that Cooper is kind of possessed by the charm of Twin Peaks while in the town. Seeing the brief glimpses in FWWM with Theresa and the Philadelphia Jeffries incident and comparing that to how he acts after leaving the Sherrif's office in this finale, I think a case can be made for Cooper in Twin Peaks being a caricature of the ever optimistic do-gooder in the face of anything. Maybe the Cooper we grew to love in the original series is not actually the "real" Cooper. Maybe Cooper, an inherently good guy but normally more hardened, is having his reality distorted by that magical, wonderful and mysterious town.


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 Post subject: Re: Twin Peaks [2017]
PostPosted: Thu September 07, 2017 12:14 am 
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Spoiler: show
In shooting the guy in the diner (in the foot, admittedly) and intimidating the waitress into providing him the information he wanted, he certainly wasn't acting in a way entirely consistent with the "good Coop" we've seen in Twin Peaks.


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 Post subject: Re: Twin Peaks [2017]
PostPosted: Thu September 07, 2017 12:58 am 
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Oh yeah. No, he's not the same guy in Part 18. Totally agree with that.


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 Post subject: Re: Twin Peaks [2017]
PostPosted: Thu September 07, 2017 1:28 am 
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washing machine wrote:
I'm into a theory about Coop that I heard on a podcast last night, though in understanding and now repeating it I feel like I'm about to play a game of telephone with myself with this real downer of an interpretation:

The Cooper we saw after the key was handed to him is a fully awake Cooper. Awake to the sorrow, sadness and horror of reality. Chipper Cooper of the original series, and Twin Peaks in general, is a sort of Lost Highway/Mulholland Drive type fantasy. Cooper becomes so infatuated with the town and the people because he's not awake to the horror of Judy yet. The lodge and Judy pull him in gradually in the OS, then slowly chew him up and spit him out in The Return. The overlay of Cooper's head in the Sherrif's office and the repeat of the Jeffries line about living inside a dream are key to this interpretation, and everything that happens after that is perhaps the most real thing Cooper has ever experienced. Notice how real that world looks after they trek from Texas back to Washington. There's even a hard, unfiltered shot of a Valero station.


I'm totally on board with that on a symbolic level. Cooper was so pure and optimistic that he was almost naive. After the sheriff's station his good and bad sides are balanced, so in effect he is seeing reality for what it really is.


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 Post subject: Re: Twin Peaks [2017]
PostPosted: Thu September 07, 2017 4:04 am 
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parasolmonster wrote:
washing machine wrote:
I'm into a theory about Coop that I heard on a podcast last night, though in understanding and now repeating it I feel like I'm about to play a game of telephone with myself with this real downer of an interpretation:

The Cooper we saw after the key was handed to him is a fully awake Cooper. Awake to the sorrow, sadness and horror of reality. Chipper Cooper of the original series, and Twin Peaks in general, is a sort of Lost Highway/Mulholland Drive type fantasy. Cooper becomes so infatuated with the town and the people because he's not awake to the horror of Judy yet. The lodge and Judy pull him in gradually in the OS, then slowly chew him up and spit him out in The Return. The overlay of Cooper's head in the Sherrif's office and the repeat of the Jeffries line about living inside a dream are key to this interpretation, and everything that happens after that is perhaps the most real thing Cooper has ever experienced. Notice how real that world looks after they trek from Texas back to Washington. There's even a hard, unfiltered shot of a Valero station.


I'm totally on board with that on a symbolic level. Cooper was so pure and optimistic that he was almost naive. After the sheriff's station his good and bad sides are balanced, so in effect he is seeing reality for what it really is.


I'm really going to have to take notes when I revisit this series (which will happen soon after that goddamn finale) as Coop was always flawed, he is human and we know of poor incidents with women; but the curiosity is that notion of this came well before The Return and drives me to a dream logic conundrum with Jeffries' FWWM scene a focal point.

I, personally, cannot take each character as a singular chapter of a dreamt reality in this universe. I think it does a disservice to the total construct and is a bit of a cop-out... Lynch loves dream logic (and strays pretty far-out at times) but he never lets the tie to modern day slip his grasp. When you read an effective allegory you consume the words and at some point thereafter you realize the weight of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Twin Peaks [2017]
PostPosted: Fri September 08, 2017 7:14 am 
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hey, so, what was the deal with the new york stuff? im gonna watch through again cos theres probably a lot more i'll pick up on the second viewing but what was the significance of that new york stuff at the beginning? are there answers / theories on that ?

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 Post subject: Re: Twin Peaks [2017]
PostPosted: Fri September 08, 2017 2:47 pm 
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WtOB? wrote:
hey, so, what was the deal with the new york stuff? im gonna watch through again cos theres probably a lot more i'll pick up on the second viewing but what was the significance of that new york stuff at the beginning? are there answers / theories on that ?

Evil Coop set it up to see anything coming out of the lodge. He was trying to catch Dale and/or The Mother. It's not entirely clear to me which he was most interested in. But it makes sense that it was a sort of cosmic telescope. I think he ultimately wanted to track/catch The Mother but he also needed to keep an eye out for Dale Cooper, in case Dale found a way to escape or was released from The Black Lodge.


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 Post subject: Re: Twin Peaks [2017]
PostPosted: Fri September 08, 2017 7:51 pm 
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durdencommatyler wrote:
WtOB? wrote:
hey, so, what was the deal with the new york stuff? im gonna watch through again cos theres probably a lot more i'll pick up on the second viewing but what was the significance of that new york stuff at the beginning? are there answers / theories on that ?

Evil Coop set it up to see anything coming out of the lodge. He was trying to catch Dale and/or The Mother. It's not entirely clear to me which he was most interested in. But it makes sense that it was a sort of cosmic telescope. I think he ultimately wanted to track/catch The Mother but he also needed to keep an eye out for Dale Cooper, in case Dale found a way to escape or was released from The Black Lodge.

i see.

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 Post subject: Re: Twin Peaks [2017]
PostPosted: Sat September 09, 2017 6:37 am 
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This is a long read, but incredibly interesting. I haven't tried it yet, but if it's true this is the most amazing work of art I have ever seen.https://medium.com/@onantiad/episodes-17-18-of-twin-peaks-the-return-are-meant-to-be-watched-in-sync-81352ce38e8

On a side note, I picked up the soundtracks today. There is so much good music on there! So far I seem to be drawn to the song by Trouble more than the others. My only complaint was that I was hoping they would put the slowed down Moonlight Sonata and the Woodsman's poem from Part 8 on there.


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 Post subject: Re: Twin Peaks [2017]
PostPosted: Sat September 09, 2017 8:33 pm 
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parasolmonster wrote:
This is a long read, but incredibly interesting. I haven't tried it yet, but if it's true this is the most amazing work of art I have ever seen.https://medium.com/@onantiad/episodes-17-18-of-twin-peaks-the-return-are-meant-to-be-watched-in-sync-81352ce38e8




Holy fuck. I had goosebumps and a lump in my throat the whole time I read that. That's amazing. And I'm going to do it.


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