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Joined: Fri March 22, 2013 7:20 pm Posts: 8595 Location: 41.1716° S, 174.8248° E
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
Birds in Hell wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
Birds in Hell wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
Birds in Hell wrote:
I guess it's all been said now, but suicide is inescapably, fundamentally selfish.
I think the media reporting of suicide has a lot to blame for things like this. The morbid detail in which Kate Spade's death was reported, and the focus on how much pain she was in, seems so harmful to me, and I expect it will all be replayed now with Bourdain as it was with Robin Williams, Cornell, and so on.
I don't expect the media to discover a moral conscience, but I think a focus on the pain suicide causes people's families and loved ones would be infinitely preferable to the approach taken now, which seems to indulgently focus on understanding the pain of the person involved to the point where their suicide is characterised as something close to a noble act.
I completely disagree with all of this, and think this kind of approach would only further stigmatize suicide and depression for people who are suffering, and make it harder to understand and empathize.
I'm not sure people who commit suicide should be indulged in that way, though. If feeling as though they're doing something fundamentally morally wrong, for which they will be judged by their loved ones, might give them a second's pause before committing the act, then it's worth it. I think the idea that their pain will be retrospectively "understood" after their passing is potentially very harmful.
This is quite a personal topic for me too, I should add, and doesn't arise from a lack of experience with suicide, mental illness and serious depression.
Moral pressure and the judgment of "loved ones" is the last fucking thing I could imagine needing to deal when struggling with depression and suicidal ideation. Come on. This is incredibly cruel.
Cruel is what people like Bourdain and Spade have done to their daughters; for their entire lifetime, they need to carry the hurt of knowing that their parents prioritised their own pain, even for that moment, above them. That isn't to suggest they shouldn't be acknowledged as human beings who were hurting and in pain, but I really think it has to be stressed how desperately wrong those actions are, and how morally indefensible.
Anyway, this discussion probably isn't going to end up with anyone involved coming to a different view - it's probably fruitless to continue.
Yeah, even listening to this opinion is making me viscerally angry, so we'll just agree that you're a heartless, horrible monster and move on.
That may be so, but he still makes a great point
_________________ "I really enjoy sandwiches but the other guys are so good at making sandwiches that I don't make them. Now I make sandwiches."
I guess it's all been said now, but suicide is inescapably, fundamentally selfish.
I think the media reporting of suicide has a lot to blame for things like this. The morbid detail in which Kate Spade's death was reported, and the focus on how much pain she was in, seems so harmful to me, and I expect it will all be replayed now with Bourdain as it was with Robin Williams, Cornell, and so on.
I don't expect the media to discover a moral conscience, but I think a focus on the pain suicide causes people's families and loved ones would be infinitely preferable to the approach taken now, which seems to indulgently focus on understanding the pain of the person involved to the point where their suicide is characterised as something close to a noble act.
I completely disagree with all of this, and think this kind of approach would only further stigmatize suicide and depression for people who are suffering, and make it harder to understand and empathize.
I'm not sure people who commit suicide should be indulged in that way, though. If feeling as though they're doing something fundamentally morally wrong, for which they will be judged by their loved ones, might give them a second's pause before committing the act, then it's worth it. I think the idea that their pain will be retrospectively "understood" after their passing is potentially very harmful.
This is quite a personal topic for me too, I should add, and doesn't arise from a lack of experience with suicide, mental illness and serious depression.
Moral pressure and the judgment of "loved ones" is the last fucking thing I could imagine needing to deal when struggling with depression and suicidal ideation. Come on. This is incredibly cruel.
Cruel is what people like Bourdain and Spade have done to their daughters; for their entire lifetime, they need to carry the hurt of knowing that their parents prioritised their own pain, even for that moment, above them. That isn't to suggest they shouldn't be acknowledged as human beings who were hurting and in pain, but I really think it has to be stressed how desperately wrong those actions are, and how morally indefensible.
Anyway, this discussion probably isn't going to end up with anyone involved coming to a different view - it's probably fruitless to continue.
Yeah, even listening to this opinion is making me viscerally angry, so we'll just agree that you're a heartless, horrible monster and move on.
Deal.
Life can be beautiful but also so very hard - we all need to stay strong for those around us.
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 9:32 pm Posts: 31614 Location: Garbage Dump
Birds in Hell wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
Birds in Hell wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
Birds in Hell wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
Birds in Hell wrote:
I guess it's all been said now, but suicide is inescapably, fundamentally selfish.
I think the media reporting of suicide has a lot to blame for things like this. The morbid detail in which Kate Spade's death was reported, and the focus on how much pain she was in, seems so harmful to me, and I expect it will all be replayed now with Bourdain as it was with Robin Williams, Cornell, and so on.
I don't expect the media to discover a moral conscience, but I think a focus on the pain suicide causes people's families and loved ones would be infinitely preferable to the approach taken now, which seems to indulgently focus on understanding the pain of the person involved to the point where their suicide is characterised as something close to a noble act.
I completely disagree with all of this, and think this kind of approach would only further stigmatize suicide and depression for people who are suffering, and make it harder to understand and empathize.
I'm not sure people who commit suicide should be indulged in that way, though. If feeling as though they're doing something fundamentally morally wrong, for which they will be judged by their loved ones, might give them a second's pause before committing the act, then it's worth it. I think the idea that their pain will be retrospectively "understood" after their passing is potentially very harmful.
This is quite a personal topic for me too, I should add, and doesn't arise from a lack of experience with suicide, mental illness and serious depression.
Moral pressure and the judgment of "loved ones" is the last fucking thing I could imagine needing to deal when struggling with depression and suicidal ideation. Come on. This is incredibly cruel.
Cruel is what people like Bourdain and Spade have done to their daughters; for their entire lifetime, they need to carry the hurt of knowing that their parents prioritised their own pain, even for that moment, above them. That isn't to suggest they shouldn't be acknowledged as human beings who were hurting and in pain, but I really think it has to be stressed how desperately wrong those actions are, and how morally indefensible.
Anyway, this discussion probably isn't going to end up with anyone involved coming to a different view - it's probably fruitless to continue.
Yeah, even listening to this opinion is making me viscerally angry, so we'll just agree that you're a heartless, horrible monster and move on.
Deal.
Life can be beautiful but also so very hard - we all need to stay strong for those around us.
Joined: Fri March 22, 2013 7:20 pm Posts: 8595 Location: 41.1716° S, 174.8248° E
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
Birds in Hell wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
Birds in Hell wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
Birds in Hell wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
Birds in Hell wrote:
I guess it's all been said now, but suicide is inescapably, fundamentally selfish.
I think the media reporting of suicide has a lot to blame for things like this. The morbid detail in which Kate Spade's death was reported, and the focus on how much pain she was in, seems so harmful to me, and I expect it will all be replayed now with Bourdain as it was with Robin Williams, Cornell, and so on.
I don't expect the media to discover a moral conscience, but I think a focus on the pain suicide causes people's families and loved ones would be infinitely preferable to the approach taken now, which seems to indulgently focus on understanding the pain of the person involved to the point where their suicide is characterised as something close to a noble act.
I completely disagree with all of this, and think this kind of approach would only further stigmatize suicide and depression for people who are suffering, and make it harder to understand and empathize.
I'm not sure people who commit suicide should be indulged in that way, though. If feeling as though they're doing something fundamentally morally wrong, for which they will be judged by their loved ones, might give them a second's pause before committing the act, then it's worth it. I think the idea that their pain will be retrospectively "understood" after their passing is potentially very harmful.
This is quite a personal topic for me too, I should add, and doesn't arise from a lack of experience with suicide, mental illness and serious depression.
Moral pressure and the judgment of "loved ones" is the last fucking thing I could imagine needing to deal when struggling with depression and suicidal ideation. Come on. This is incredibly cruel.
Cruel is what people like Bourdain and Spade have done to their daughters; for their entire lifetime, they need to carry the hurt of knowing that their parents prioritised their own pain, even for that moment, above them. That isn't to suggest they shouldn't be acknowledged as human beings who were hurting and in pain, but I really think it has to be stressed how desperately wrong those actions are, and how morally indefensible.
Anyway, this discussion probably isn't going to end up with anyone involved coming to a different view - it's probably fruitless to continue.
Yeah, even listening to this opinion is making me viscerally angry, so we'll just agree that you're a heartless, horrible monster and move on.
Deal.
Life can be beautiful but also so very hard - we all need to stay strong for those around us.
I don't even agree with this sentiment!
I don't understand this madness
_________________ "I really enjoy sandwiches but the other guys are so good at making sandwiches that I don't make them. Now I make sandwiches."
Guys, I am not a moderator! I swear to God! Why does everyone think I'm a moderator?
Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 2:48 pm Posts: 47324
The thing is, he absolutely thought of his child before doing this. But in the end thought that her dealing with a depressed dad, his demons, or whatever other problems he brought to the table wasn't worth it to her. I've shared this story before, maybe only via PM, I can't remember. But I once had a gun in my mouth about to go forward with it. And one of the main thoughts was "now my family won't have to deal with my problems and issues any more". In the end it was a dog that I didn't want my ex getting (that and I didn't want to leave him helpless)that kept me from doing it. My point being, there are a shit load of thoughts going through your mind when you are thinking about this. Not just thoughts about other people, mostly thoughts about yourself and what brought you to this point, which isn't selfish, it's what should be in your head at the time. So to say it's selfish without knowing specifics of anyone who does it is pretty naive.
_________________ Clouuuuds Rolll byyy...BANG BANG BANG BANG
In referring to someone like Bourdain as acting selfishly, I'm not describing his state of mind - again, it's that incessant focus on the person's subjective experience that seems so commonplace. It's a description of the impact of the act itself. I can't see how it's not a selfish thing; objectively, morally.
What I've been discussing has absolutely nothing to do with the "but you had a wife and a nice car and a family????" question posed above - that you're conflating that with what I'm saying is frankly mind-blowing to me.
Last edited by Birds in Hell on Fri June 08, 2018 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 9:32 pm Posts: 31614 Location: Garbage Dump
Birds in Hell wrote:
In referring to someone like Bourdain as acting selfishly, I'm not describing his state of mind - again, it's that incessant focus on the person's subjective experience that seems so commonplace. It's a description of the impact of the act itself. I can't see how it's not a selfish thing; objectively, morally.
This isn't an objective or moral issue. It's not selfish if you don't even understand the impact of what you're doing because your mind and emotions are twisting you into something you can't handle.
In referring to someone like Bourdain as acting selfishly, I'm not describing his state of mind - again, it's that incessant focus on the person's subjective experience that seems so commonplace. It's a description of the impact of the act itself. I can't see how it's not a selfish thing; objectively, morally.
This isn't an objective or moral issue. It's not selfish if you don't even understand the impact of what you're doing because your mind and emotions are twisting you into something you can't handle.
We're talking past each other, because that's absolutely something I understand.
(I also edited my post since you quoted it, though didn't change the part above.)
Joined: Sat January 05, 2013 1:57 pm Posts: 32485 Location: Where everybody knows your name
E.H. Ruddock wrote:
The thing is, he absolutely thought of his child before doing this. But in the end thought that her dealing with a depressed dad, his demons, or whatever other problems he brought to the table wasn't worth it to her. I've shared this story before, maybe only via PM, I can't remember. But I once had a gun in my mouth about to go forward with it. And one of the main thoughts was "now my family won't have to deal with my problems and issues any more". In the end it was a dog that I didn't want my ex getting (that and I didn't want to leave him helpless)that kept me from doing it. My point being, there are a shit load of thoughts going through your mind when you are thinking about this. Not just thoughts about other people, mostly thoughts about yourself and what brought you to this point, which isn't selfish, it's what should be in your head at the time. So to say it's selfish without knowing specifics of anyone who does it is pretty naive.
Damn, Ruddo. That fucking dog is awesome in more ways than some of us knew. I’m glad you stuck around for it.
_________________ Let me tell you, Homer Simpson is cock of nothing! - C. Montgomery Burns
An enigma of a man shaped hole in the wall between reality and the soul of the devil.
Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 5:13 pm Posts: 39819 Location: 6000 feet beyond man and time.
One thing I don't get is that everytime this happens, people say "if you are feeling this way, its ok to get help. Find someone to talk to. Call this hotline...". But do suicidal people think its not ok to seek help? Doesn't seem that way. I don't think there is much stigma to having suicidal thoughts, so I don't think there is any social pressure to not seek help. In many cases, they don't want it. They don't see much point.
One thing I don't get is that everytime this happens, people say "if you are feeling this way, its ok to get help. Find someone to talk to. Call this hotline...". But do suicidal people think its not ok to seek help? Doesn't seem that way. I don't think there is much stigma to having suicidal thoughts, so I don't think there is any social pressure to not seek help. In many cases, they don't want it. They don't see much point.
There are still plenty of judgmental assholes out there.
_________________
Rangi Guy wrote:
So skating back to the train station after work today things went wrong.....now my skateboard is at the bottom of the harbour
An enigma of a man shaped hole in the wall between reality and the soul of the devil.
Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 5:13 pm Posts: 39819 Location: 6000 feet beyond man and time.
Sgt. Crackpot wrote:
BurtReynolds wrote:
One thing I don't get is that everytime this happens, people say "if you are feeling this way, its ok to get help. Find someone to talk to. Call this hotline...". But do suicidal people think its not ok to seek help? Doesn't seem that way. I don't think there is much stigma to having suicidal thoughts, so I don't think there is any social pressure to not seek help. In many cases, they don't want it. They don't see much point.
There are still plenty of judgmental assholes out there.
So what? I can't see many cases where a suicidal person is sitting around thinking "I really want to get help, but then everyone will think I'm suicidal!" before offing themselves. That isn't the way this happens.
It was the hardest thing in my life to admit that I'd had suicidal thoughts. It was to my doctor, who then prescribed a mental health plan.
When my wife found out, she was devastated. I was shattered and felt worthless at the time and hated the fact that she knew.
I was well aware at the time if I'd have gone through with it, that the impact of my family would have been absolutely horrific. But, in my mind I felt they were better off because I believed I wasn't capable of carrying on as a useful father or husband.
This is the mindset of many others in this position. It's not about being selfish. It's about wanting to completely end your only life to stop the pain. The pain which you feel that is so bad and has such a negative affect on others around you, that you would eventually better their lives by removing yourself from them.
You never fully understand until you've been in that position. It was the lowest and most regrettable point in my life. But, I'm glad I never went ahead with it. The problems I had at that time were bad, but were eventually solvable. Killing myself would have been permanent.
_________________
Rangi Guy wrote:
So skating back to the train station after work today things went wrong.....now my skateboard is at the bottom of the harbour
It was the hardest thing in my life to admit that I'd had suicidal thoughts. It was to my doctor, who then prescribed a mental health plan.
When my wife found out, she was devastated. I was shattered and felt worthless at the time and hated the fact that she knew.
I was well aware at the time if I'd have gone through with it, that the impact of my family would have been absolutely horrific. But, in my mind I felt they were better off because I believed I wasn't capable of carrying on as a useful father or husband.
This is the mindset of many others in this position. It's not about being selfish. It's about wanting to completely end your only life to stop the pain. The pain which you feel that is so bad and has such a negative affect on others around you, that you would eventually better their lives by removing yourself from them.
You never fully understand until you've been in that position. It was the lowest and most regrettable point in my life. But, I'm glad I never went ahead with it. The problems I had at that time were bad, but were eventually solvable. Killing myself would have been permanent.
Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 2:02 am Posts: 15145 Location: Gigatown
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
Birds in Hell wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
Birds in Hell wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
Birds in Hell wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
Birds in Hell wrote:
I guess it's all been said now, but suicide is inescapably, fundamentally selfish.
I think the media reporting of suicide has a lot to blame for things like this. The morbid detail in which Kate Spade's death was reported, and the focus on how much pain she was in, seems so harmful to me, and I expect it will all be replayed now with Bourdain as it was with Robin Williams, Cornell, and so on.
I don't expect the media to discover a moral conscience, but I think a focus on the pain suicide causes people's families and loved ones would be infinitely preferable to the approach taken now, which seems to indulgently focus on understanding the pain of the person involved to the point where their suicide is characterised as something close to a noble act.
I completely disagree with all of this, and think this kind of approach would only further stigmatize suicide and depression for people who are suffering, and make it harder to understand and empathize.
I'm not sure people who commit suicide should be indulged in that way, though. If feeling as though they're doing something fundamentally morally wrong, for which they will be judged by their loved ones, might give them a second's pause before committing the act, then it's worth it. I think the idea that their pain will be retrospectively "understood" after their passing is potentially very harmful.
This is quite a personal topic for me too, I should add, and doesn't arise from a lack of experience with suicide, mental illness and serious depression.
Moral pressure and the judgment of "loved ones" is the last fucking thing I could imagine needing to deal when struggling with depression and suicidal ideation. Come on. This is incredibly cruel.
Cruel is what people like Bourdain and Spade have done to their daughters; for their entire lifetime, they need to carry the hurt of knowing that their parents prioritised their own pain, even for that moment, above them. That isn't to suggest they shouldn't be acknowledged as human beings who were hurting and in pain, but I really think it has to be stressed how desperately wrong those actions are, and how morally indefensible.
Anyway, this discussion probably isn't going to end up with anyone involved coming to a different view - it's probably fruitless to continue.
Yeah, even listening to this opinion is making me viscerally angry, so we'll just agree that you're a heartless, horrible monster and move on.
Deal.
Life can be beautiful but also so very hard - we all need to stay strong for those around us.
I don't even agree with this sentiment!
I completely agree with spenno on this. As someone who deals with depression, and has had suicidal thoughts, I can attest that understanding the harm that such an act would cause not only to my children, but my parents, my brother and his family, and my close friends All of those people have at times been my only reason to live. I couldn’t bear the thought of deeply scarring my children, breaking their hearts forever. And I didn’t want to let my parents and my friends down. I knew they loved me, and they were undeserving of the pain I would’ve caused them. I’ve since found countless things to live for and reasons to be happy, but in my lowest times, the knowledge of the hurt I would’ve caused them is absolutely what kept me alive.
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