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tl;dr version: we're not saying your ideas are stupid, we're just offering our side because we see things differently that maybe you don't see and provided examples to back up our claim.
you all definitely see plenty i don't see. you all also seek out plenty where as i'm more than comfortable looking at the character interactions fairly superficially. i'll try and provide some more examples from here on (because i do like the story and want to know how it ends), but i for one choose/prefer not to get super abstract/meta with my posting for fear of being misunderstood (yet again, although clearly it's my own fault).
i'll spoiler it in case somebody happens upon this conversation:
example 1: jesse shoots gale - i don't see this as jesse growing/learning anything. i see it only as a life or death situation which we can agree most everyone will act to preserve their own life (had gale had a gun, jesse would have been killed... some libertarian he turned out to be). we already know jesse has the capacity/willingness to kill (tuco, tomas's muscle), he's just yet to act on it. his subsequent crack-house is just a doubling-down of his already expressed maladaptive coping-mechanism (his response to jane, his aunt) only to have walt help him out, save him.
example 2: walt (in general) - sometimes it was within an episode, other times it was across a whole season or seasons, but walt is pretty easily manipulated by the people around him (which i'd summarize as annoying especially considering why he's a lowly-teacher and an underachiever to begin with). skylar knows this, jesse knows this, gus knows this (to name a few) and each take turns using walt's predictability to their own benefit. the fact that walt is so often creating problems for himself (like upping the amount they'll cook as a very subtle instance) and then resolving it for himself and those around him (starting w/ the guy in jesse's basement) doesn't show learning, it shows a very predictable pattern of getting done what needs to get done in order to survive (overlooking the fact that the situation could have been mostly avoided). i agree, that it's good writing that you could know a character well enough to know what to expect from them, but in reality, i think we also expect people to learn from their mistakes/missteps. i understand the reality that once walt allows jesse to be replaced it's only a matter of time before he himself is also replaced. what i don't understand is how a guy like gus can orchestrate his business (with all it's layers) and yet walt & jesse are able to exert the amount of power that they do especially considering, as i said above, gus knows full well how to manipulate walt.
Jesse shooting Gale is a huge thing because he wasn't a bad person by any means. Everyone else was a perceived bad person. gale was innocent and only guilty of being in the way of Walter and jesse staying alive.
tl;dr version: we're not saying your ideas are stupid, we're just offering our side because we see things differently that maybe you don't see and provided examples to back up our claim.
you all definitely see plenty i don't see. you all also seek out plenty where as i'm more than comfortable looking at the character interactions fairly superficially. i'll try and provide some more examples from here on (because i do like the story and want to know how it ends), but i for one choose/prefer not to get super abstract/meta with my posting for fear of being misunderstood (yet again, although clearly it's my own fault).
i'll spoiler it in case somebody happens upon this conversation:
example 1: jesse shoots gale - i don't see this as jesse growing/learning anything. i see it only as a life or death situation which we can agree most everyone will act to preserve their own life (had gale had a gun, jesse would have been killed... some libertarian he turned out to be). we already know jesse has the capacity/willingness to kill (tuco, tomas's muscle), he's just yet to act on it. his subsequent crack-house is just a doubling-down of his already expressed maladaptive coping-mechanism (his response to jane, his aunt) only to have walt help him out, save him.
example 2: walt (in general) - sometimes it was within an episode, other times it was across a whole season or seasons, but walt is pretty easily manipulated by the people around him (which i'd summarize as annoying especially considering why he's a lowly-teacher and an underachiever to begin with). skylar knows this, jesse knows this, gus knows this (to name a few) and each take turns using walt's predictability to their own benefit. the fact that walt is so often creating problems for himself (like upping the amount they'll cook as a very subtle instance) and then resolving it for himself and those around him (starting w/ the guy in jesse's basement) doesn't show learning, it shows a very predictable pattern of getting done what needs to get done in order to survive (overlooking the fact that the situation could have been mostly avoided). i agree, that it's good writing that you could know a character well enough to know what to expect from them, but in reality, i think we also expect people to learn from their mistakes/missteps. i understand the reality that once walt allows jesse to be replaced it's only a matter of time before he himself is also replaced. what i don't understand is how a guy like gus can orchestrate his business (with all it's layers) and yet walt & jesse are able to exert the amount of power that they do especially considering, as i said above, gus knows full well how to manipulate walt.
Jesse shooting Gale is a huge thing because he wasn't a bad person by any means. Everyone else was a perceived bad person. gale was innocent and only guilty of being in the way of Walter and jesse staying alive.
And he wasn't "in the way" by choice. It's been a while, but as I recall, Gale wasn't entirely comfortable with how all of that was playing out.
Joined: Thu January 10, 2013 2:19 am Posts: 8898 Location: SOUTH PORTLAND
griffinxi wrote:
elliseamos wrote:
Mecca wrote:
only guilty of being in the way of Walter and jesse staying alive.
which made it a pretty easy choice.
I don't think this show is as much about choices as it is about inevitabilities.
like the inevitability that jesse will screw something up and walt will bail them both out, creating the inevitability that it will have ever more dire consequences for everyone around him?
only guilty of being in the way of Walter and jesse staying alive.
which made it a pretty easy choice.
I don't think this show is as much about choices as it is about inevitabilities.
im sure the show is about choices too.
Sure, to an extent, and in a certain context-- but much care has been put into expressing ideas such as Walt being a timebomb. Walt wasn't responsible for his cancer-- it boxed him into a corner; it was a catlyst. Not that the show is about biology, but from the standpoint of evolutionary biology there are no chocies-- we're wired a specific way, to react in specific ways, etc. I think given the right circumstances, we all might find ourselves morally compromised in profound ways.
Now, I know It's not dramatically interesting to say "Walt has no choice", but I think he always had the "Bad" in him. I think the circumstances gave it the environment it needed to flourish.
only guilty of being in the way of Walter and jesse staying alive.
which made it a pretty easy choice.
I can't remember exactly how it all played out. But I remember Walt's life being in danger, not necessarily Jesse's. In which case, it wasn't an easy choice or an inevitability.
Whether or not the show circles itself too much, I think the performances are amazing and the tension is remarkable. Walt's continual manipulation of Jesse has been masterful and brilliant to watch, I think.
only guilty of being in the way of Walter and jesse staying alive.
which made it a pretty easy choice.
I can't remember exactly how it all played out. But I remember Walt's life being in danger, not necessarily Jesse's. In which case, it wasn't an easy choice or an inevitability.
Whether or not the show circles itself too much, I think the performances are amazing and the tension is remarkable. Walt's continual manipulation of Jesse has been masterful and brilliant to watch, I think.
Yeah, the acting is incredible. That cliffhanger (Gale's murder) had me scrambling to the internet to watch the follow-up (watched it on Netflix).
Joined: Thu January 10, 2013 2:19 am Posts: 8898 Location: SOUTH PORTLAND
durdencommatyler wrote:
elliseamos wrote:
Mecca wrote:
only guilty of being in the way of Walter and jesse staying alive.
which made it a pretty easy choice.
I can't remember exactly how it all played out. But I remember Walt's life being in danger, not necessarily Jesse's. In which case, it wasn't an easy choice or an inevitability.
Whether or not the show circles itself too much, I think the performances are amazing and the tension is remarkable. Walt's continual manipulation of Jesse has been masterful and brilliant to watch, I think.
Jesse was hiding out in an arcade at the time, i think he knew his life was on the line (even though Walt was clearly in more imminent danger).
i'll admit that saying the show "sucked" the other day was mostly to get a rise out of those that put this show on equal footing with The Wire (you really should watch it, Mr. Durden), but i do like the story and the acting. i just think it would be better if all the characters didn't seem to make the same mistakes time and again.
only guilty of being in the way of Walter and jesse staying alive.
which made it a pretty easy choice.
I can't remember exactly how it all played out. But I remember Walt's life being in danger, not necessarily Jesse's. In which case, it wasn't an easy choice or an inevitability.
Whether or not the show circles itself too much, I think the performances are amazing and the tension is remarkable. Walt's continual manipulation of Jesse has been masterful and brilliant to watch, I think.
Jesse was hiding out in an arcade at the time, i think he knew his life was on the line (even though Walt was clearly in more imminent danger).
i'll admit that saying the show "sucked" the other day was mostly to get a rise out of those that put this show on equal footing with The Wire (you really should watch it, Mr. Durden), but i do like the story and the acting. i just think it would be better if all the characters didn't seem to make the same mistakes time and again.
I can sort of see where you're coming from. As I've said, I think the show is far from flawless, and far from the best show (on TV now or ever). I plan on starting The Wire very soon. Hopefully, in about one month I'll be able to get it going. I've been looking forward to that beast for a long, long time.
Joined: Thu January 10, 2013 2:19 am Posts: 8898 Location: SOUTH PORTLAND
durdencommatyler wrote:
elliseamos wrote:
durdencommatyler wrote:
elliseamos wrote:
Mecca wrote:
only guilty of being in the way of Walter and jesse staying alive.
which made it a pretty easy choice.
I can't remember exactly how it all played out. But I remember Walt's life being in danger, not necessarily Jesse's. In which case, it wasn't an easy choice or an inevitability.
Whether or not the show circles itself too much, I think the performances are amazing and the tension is remarkable. Walt's continual manipulation of Jesse has been masterful and brilliant to watch, I think.
Jesse was hiding out in an arcade at the time, i think he knew his life was on the line (even though Walt was clearly in more imminent danger).
i'll admit that saying the show "sucked" the other day was mostly to get a rise out of those that put this show on equal footing with The Wire (you really should watch it, Mr. Durden), but i do like the story and the acting. i just think it would be better if all the characters didn't seem to make the same mistakes time and again.
I can sort of see where you're coming from. As I've said, I think the show is far from flawless, and far from the best show (on TV now or ever). I plan on starting The Wire very soon. Hopefully, in about one month I'll be able to get it going. I've been looking forward to that beast for a long, long time.
only guilty of being in the way of Walter and jesse staying alive.
which made it a pretty easy choice.
I can't remember exactly how it all played out. But I remember Walt's life being in danger, not necessarily Jesse's. In which case, it wasn't an easy choice or an inevitability.
Whether or not the show circles itself too much, I think the performances are amazing and the tension is remarkable. Walt's continual manipulation of Jesse has been masterful and brilliant to watch, I think.
Jesse was hiding out in an arcade at the time, i think he knew his life was on the line (even though Walt was clearly in more imminent danger).
i'll admit that saying the show "sucked" the other day was mostly to get a rise out of those that put this show on equal footing with The Wire (you really should watch it, Mr. Durden), but i do like the story and the acting. i just think it would be better if all the characters didn't seem to make the same mistakes time and again.
I can sort of see where you're coming from. As I've said, I think the show is far from flawless, and far from the best show (on TV now or ever). I plan on starting The Wire very soon. Hopefully, in about one month I'll be able to get it going. I've been looking forward to that beast for a long, long time.
you won't regret it.
The wife and I watched the first episode of The Wire once, and while I understand that good stories have to be given time to build, she tends to like things to get off the ground very quickly. Does it get less...deliberate? Or does it stay methodical? I hear so many good things, so I want to watch it, but with two kids, there's not a lot of time, so we tend to cut shows loose if they don't bring her in right away.
_________________ "Lately, the only thing keeping me from being a serial killer is my distaste for manual labor." - Dilbert
Joined: Thu January 10, 2013 2:19 am Posts: 8898 Location: SOUTH PORTLAND
kahli sana wrote:
elliseamos wrote:
durdencommatyler wrote:
elliseamos wrote:
durdencommatyler wrote:
elliseamos wrote:
Mecca wrote:
only guilty of being in the way of Walter and jesse staying alive.
which made it a pretty easy choice.
I can't remember exactly how it all played out. But I remember Walt's life being in danger, not necessarily Jesse's. In which case, it wasn't an easy choice or an inevitability.
Whether or not the show circles itself too much, I think the performances are amazing and the tension is remarkable. Walt's continual manipulation of Jesse has been masterful and brilliant to watch, I think.
Jesse was hiding out in an arcade at the time, i think he knew his life was on the line (even though Walt was clearly in more imminent danger).
i'll admit that saying the show "sucked" the other day was mostly to get a rise out of those that put this show on equal footing with The Wire (you really should watch it, Mr. Durden), but i do like the story and the acting. i just think it would be better if all the characters didn't seem to make the same mistakes time and again.
I can sort of see where you're coming from. As I've said, I think the show is far from flawless, and far from the best show (on TV now or ever). I plan on starting The Wire very soon. Hopefully, in about one month I'll be able to get it going. I've been looking forward to that beast for a long, long time.
you won't regret it.
The wife and I watched the first episode of The Wire once, and while I understand that good stories have to be given time to build, she tends to like things to get off the ground very quickly. Does it get less...deliberate? Or does it stay methodical? I hear so many good things, so I want to watch it, but with two kids, there's not a lot of time, so we tend to cut shows loose if they don't bring her in right away.
Joined: Thu January 10, 2013 2:19 am Posts: 8898 Location: SOUTH PORTLAND
kahli sana wrote:
Sometimes I forget about things like context and location.
don't we all? i think the show is tremendous and only gets better the more you watch and the more characters you know. i'd look over that thread (or the one from the old board).
Just began this show 5 days ago, have now watched all 54 episodes, quite addicting, great acting, enjoy it so far, however, it's not without flaws. Best lines of the show: Saul Goodman.
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