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Post subject: Re: Christopher Nolan's OPPENHEIMER (2023)
Posted: Wed November 15, 2023 8:35 pm
Production Police
Joined: Tue September 24, 2013 5:56 pm Posts: 47174 Location: In the oatmeal aisle wearing a Shellac shirt
Epilogue I’m not sure if this is part of your reason for disliking Oppenheimer, but what were your thoughts on Nolan’s in-film response to the criticism that his female characters are thinly drawn / highly objectified?
Epilogue I’m not sure if this is part of your reason for disliking Oppenheimer, but what were your thoughts on Nolan’s in-film response to the criticism that his female characters are thinly drawn / highly objectified?
I haven't seen Nolan's response to that criticism.
In general, I agree with that criticism. The women are poorly drawn and dismissed. And while that certainly makes the movie worse, it's not the only thing about the movie that doesn't work for me. Florence and Emily, are both powerhouses and I think they do amazing work within the sad limitations of the script they're given, btw.
Post subject: Re: Christopher Nolan's OPPENHEIMER (2023)
Posted: Wed November 15, 2023 10:15 pm
Production Police
Joined: Tue September 24, 2013 5:56 pm Posts: 47174 Location: In the oatmeal aisle wearing a Shellac shirt
epilogue wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
Epilogue I’m not sure if this is part of your reason for disliking Oppenheimer, but what were your thoughts on Nolan’s in-film response to the criticism that his female characters are thinly drawn / highly objectified?
I haven't seen Nolan's response to that criticism.
In general, I agree with that criticism. The women are poorly drawn and dismissed. And while that certainly makes the movie worse, it's not the only thing about the movie that doesn't work for me. Florence and Emily, are both powerhouses and I think they do amazing work within the sad limitations of the script they're given, btw.
I also agree with the criticism, 100%.
Some reviewers have posited that when Frank O's wife gets frustrated with J. Robert's tendency to forget her name, that was Nolan's way of acknowledging that there would continue to be criticism around this movie's treatment of women, but that in staying faithful to J. Robert's person, he was obligated to treat the women as dispensable as this was how J. Robert saw them...
To that extent, I'm more or less fine with how the movie treats most of the women in his sphere...
But I think it completely dropped the ball on his wife, who deserved to have her fears and frustrations fleshed out. By treating her as similarly dispensable -- even a willing participant -- I think it really undersold some important historical/cultural context, and made both she and her husband more one dimensional than they probably were in real life.
Epilogue I’m not sure if this is part of your reason for disliking Oppenheimer, but what were your thoughts on Nolan’s in-film response to the criticism that his female characters are thinly drawn / highly objectified?
I haven't seen Nolan's response to that criticism.
In general, I agree with that criticism. The women are poorly drawn and dismissed. And while that certainly makes the movie worse, it's not the only thing about the movie that doesn't work for me. Florence and Emily, are both powerhouses and I think they do amazing work within the sad limitations of the script they're given, btw.
I also agree with the criticism, 100%.
Some reviewers have posited that when Frank O's wife gets frustrated with J. Robert's tendency to forget her name, that was Nolan's way of acknowledging that there would continue to be criticism around this movie's treatment of women, but that in staying faithful to J. Robert's person, he was obligated to treat the women as dispensable as this was how J. Robert saw them...
To that extent, I'm more or less fine with how the movie treats most of the women in his sphere...
But I think it completely dropped the ball on his wife, who deserved to have her fears and frustrations fleshed out. By treating her as similarly dispensable -- even a willing participant -- I think it really undersold some important historical/cultural context, and made both she and her husband more one dimensional than they probably were in real life.
My $.02.
I don't buy that critical speculation, personally. Because the movie is the same without the women. So if Nolan were trying to make some point with it, he really missed the mark and it honestly makes the movie much, much worse. I think Nolan is an intelligent filmmaker, so I'm going to assume this wasn't part of his overall perspective.
As far as his wife goes, I totally agree with you. There's a chance Nolan could have gotten away with it if he hadn't included a specific scene in when Oppenheimer tells us how he and his wife are so connected and have been through the fire together. Not showing us that relationship really hurts the movie. It's exposition for exposition's sake. It's part of what I mean when I saw the movie is Wikipedia the movie.
Post subject: Re: Christopher Nolan's OPPENHEIMER (2023)
Posted: Wed November 15, 2023 10:49 pm
Production Police
Joined: Tue September 24, 2013 5:56 pm Posts: 47174 Location: In the oatmeal aisle wearing a Shellac shirt
epilogue wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
epilogue wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
Epilogue I’m not sure if this is part of your reason for disliking Oppenheimer, but what were your thoughts on Nolan’s in-film response to the criticism that his female characters are thinly drawn / highly objectified?
I haven't seen Nolan's response to that criticism.
In general, I agree with that criticism. The women are poorly drawn and dismissed. And while that certainly makes the movie worse, it's not the only thing about the movie that doesn't work for me. Florence and Emily, are both powerhouses and I think they do amazing work within the sad limitations of the script they're given, btw.
I also agree with the criticism, 100%.
Some reviewers have posited that when Frank O's wife gets frustrated with J. Robert's tendency to forget her name, that was Nolan's way of acknowledging that there would continue to be criticism around this movie's treatment of women, but that in staying faithful to J. Robert's person, he was obligated to treat the women as dispensable as this was how J. Robert saw them...
To that extent, I'm more or less fine with how the movie treats most of the women in his sphere...
But I think it completely dropped the ball on his wife, who deserved to have her fears and frustrations fleshed out. By treating her as similarly dispensable -- even a willing participant -- I think it really undersold some important historical/cultural context, and made both she and her husband more one dimensional than they probably were in real life.
My $.02.
I don't buy that critical speculation, personally. Because the movie is the same without the women. So if Nolan were trying to make some point with it, he really missed the mark and it honestly makes the movie much, much worse. I think Nolan is an intelligent filmmaker, so I'm going to assume this wasn't part of his overall perspective.
As far as his wife goes, I totally agree with you. There's a chance Nolan could have gotten away with it if he hadn't included a specific scene in when Oppenheimer tells us how he and his wife are so connected and have been through the fire together. Not showing us that relationship really hurts the movie. It's exposition for exposition's sake. It's part of what I mean when I saw the movie is Wikipedia the movie.
Interesting... I'll have to think on this bold part but at first blush I don't think that's crazy at all.
Post subject: Re: Christopher Nolan's OPPENHEIMER (2023)
Posted: Thu November 16, 2023 1:28 am
An enigma of a man shaped hole in the wall between reality and the soul of the devil.
Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 5:13 pm Posts: 39834 Location: 6000 feet beyond man and time.
tragabigzanda wrote:
epilogue wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
epilogue wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
Epilogue I’m not sure if this is part of your reason for disliking Oppenheimer, but what were your thoughts on Nolan’s in-film response to the criticism that his female characters are thinly drawn / highly objectified?
I haven't seen Nolan's response to that criticism.
In general, I agree with that criticism. The women are poorly drawn and dismissed. And while that certainly makes the movie worse, it's not the only thing about the movie that doesn't work for me. Florence and Emily, are both powerhouses and I think they do amazing work within the sad limitations of the script they're given, btw.
I also agree with the criticism, 100%.
Some reviewers have posited that when Frank O's wife gets frustrated with J. Robert's tendency to forget her name, that was Nolan's way of acknowledging that there would continue to be criticism around this movie's treatment of women, but that in staying faithful to J. Robert's person, he was obligated to treat the women as dispensable as this was how J. Robert saw them...
To that extent, I'm more or less fine with how the movie treats most of the women in his sphere...
But I think it completely dropped the ball on his wife, who deserved to have her fears and frustrations fleshed out. By treating her as similarly dispensable -- even a willing participant -- I think it really undersold some important historical/cultural context, and made both she and her husband more one dimensional than they probably were in real life.
My $.02.
I don't buy that critical speculation, personally. Because the movie is the same without the women. So if Nolan were trying to make some point with it, he really missed the mark and it honestly makes the movie much, much worse. I think Nolan is an intelligent filmmaker, so I'm going to assume this wasn't part of his overall perspective.
As far as his wife goes, I totally agree with you. There's a chance Nolan could have gotten away with it if he hadn't included a specific scene in when Oppenheimer tells us how he and his wife are so connected and have been through the fire together. Not showing us that relationship really hurts the movie. It's exposition for exposition's sake. It's part of what I mean when I saw the movie is Wikipedia the movie.
Interesting... I'll have to think on this bold part but at first blush I don't think that's crazy at all.
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