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Post subject: Re: Paul Thomas Anderson's Licorice Pizza (Nov. 26, 2021)
Posted: Fri October 01, 2021 5:59 pm
Future Drummer
Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 4:57 am Posts: 2820
spike wrote:
there is something to be said about art with widespread appeal, as opposed to not. if it affects more people.
if art is just supposed to simply produce feelings, and the more feelings the better, why do we even need it? what if i can get the same feeling from gardening or trimming my toe nails?
_________________
Jorge wrote:
I remember I was in Miami when it happened. I was posting from the balcony of my apartment overlooking the beach. And I was having an argument with Adamdude.
Post subject: Re: Paul Thomas Anderson's Licorice Pizza (Nov. 26, 2021)
Posted: Fri October 01, 2021 6:04 pm
The Master
Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 4:18 am Posts: 28127
Malloy wrote:
spike wrote:
there is something to be said about art with widespread appeal, as opposed to not. if it affects more people.
if art is just supposed to simply produce feelings, and the more feelings the better, why do we even need it? what if i can get the same feeling from gardening or trimming my toe nails?
does trimming your toe nails help you understand yourself more?
Post subject: Re: Paul Thomas Anderson's Licorice Pizza (Nov. 26, 2021)
Posted: Fri October 01, 2021 6:18 pm
Future Drummer
Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 4:57 am Posts: 2820
spike wrote:
Malloy wrote:
spike wrote:
there is something to be said about art with widespread appeal, as opposed to not. if it affects more people.
if art is just supposed to simply produce feelings, and the more feelings the better, why do we even need it? what if i can get the same feeling from gardening or trimming my toe nails?
does trimming your toe nails help you understand yourself more?
it doesn't. but "helps you understand yourself more" isn't the same as what you were gesturing at before, when you wrote "affects more people".
i think my general point remains -- why do we need art to understand ourselves more, when sociology, therapy, meditation, history, anthropology, psychology, religion, etc. are available to us?
i just think it's a mistake to prioritize the effects -- feelings, self-understanding -- art has on a viewer, because we end up losing sight of the things that make art discrete from other modes of representation/expression/etc. and because those same effects can be got from other places. in this view, art is itself arbitrary or incidental
_________________
Jorge wrote:
I remember I was in Miami when it happened. I was posting from the balcony of my apartment overlooking the beach. And I was having an argument with Adamdude.
and then what is the relation of the work in question to others in its tradition?
This is something that I initially wanted to push back on. Not insofar as I disagree with anyone doing it, but just that it didn't resonate with my experience. This isn't something I do. But the more I think about it, the more I wonder if that's true.
Now I'm left wondering, not whether or not I do it, but whether or not I should. I think maybe it depends on exactly what the intent is, ironically.
i don't know how we could come to understand a piece without some broader context in which we can place it. that is, how do you know a painting is a painting, if you've never seen one. our preferences and ideas -- our ability to make descriptive statements or normative judgements -- are always being shaped in part by what we've seen before, on some kind of standard.
I thought you were making a different point. I was more thinking about the tenancy to compare, like when someone says such and such is bad because it didn't do what the other similar movie that I like did. That's something that I resist. The piece should be judged by what it is not what it isn't. Especially if the "isn't" was never part of the intention.
I see the point you're actually making. But bringing this all back to subjectivity I'm not sure the above point totally jibes with what you said about subjectivity earlier that started this great discussion.
Post subject: Re: Paul Thomas Anderson's Licorice Pizza (Nov. 26, 2021)
Posted: Fri October 01, 2021 8:33 pm
Future Drummer
Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 4:57 am Posts: 2820
epilogue wrote:
Malloy wrote:
epilogue wrote:
Quote:
and then what is the relation of the work in question to others in its tradition?
This is something that I initially wanted to push back on. Not insofar as I disagree with anyone doing it, but just that it didn't resonate with my experience. This isn't something I do. But the more I think about it, the more I wonder if that's true.
Now I'm left wondering, not whether or not I do it, but whether or not I should. I think maybe it depends on exactly what the intent is, ironically.
i don't know how we could come to understand a piece without some broader context in which we can place it. that is, how do you know a painting is a painting, if you've never seen one. our preferences and ideas -- our ability to make descriptive statements or normative judgements -- are always being shaped in part by what we've seen before, on some kind of standard.
I thought you were making a different point. I was more thinking about the tenancy to compare, like when someone says such and such is bad because it didn't do what the other similar movie that I like did. That's something that I resist. The piece should be judged by what it is not what it isn't. Especially if the "isn't" was never part of the intention.
I see the point you're actually making. But bringing this all back to subjectivity I'm not sure the above point totally jibes with what you said about subjectivity earlier that started this great discussion.
Maybe I don't fully understand what you mean.
claims i'm making re: a work of art
1. works of art require intentionality 2. an art work's meaning is synonymous with the intention of the artist. 3. works of art are indifferent to their viewers, their meaning is not contingent on the subjective position of those viewers 4. works of art are legible as art because they exist, to greater or lesser degrees, within a set of agreed upon rules. those rules are the historical conventions of a particular art form. those rules & conventions are always being contested & fucked with.
here is an example of the comparison between works of art i'm advocating for: it makes sense to think about Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang as one piece of the detective genre in film. a critic can arrive at certain judgments based on the formal elements of Kiss Kiss and their interrelation, as well as how those formal elements respond to other films in the detective genre, as well as any films in any other traditions that Kiss Kiss invokes.
a side note: when you make a serious work of art, embedded in the work is a kind of self-defense for it's existence. one way to marshal that self-defense is to counterpose the work with all previous works in whatever tradition it occupies. from that vantage, comparison is impossible to avoid.
_________________
Jorge wrote:
I remember I was in Miami when it happened. I was posting from the balcony of my apartment overlooking the beach. And I was having an argument with Adamdude.
Last edited by Malloy on Fri October 01, 2021 10:02 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Post subject: Re: Paul Thomas Anderson's Licorice Pizza (Nov. 26, 2021)
Posted: Fri October 01, 2021 8:42 pm
Future Drummer
Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 4:57 am Posts: 2820
my favorite micahel fried quote is something along the lines of, when you hang two paintings next to each other in a gallery, one kills the other.
_________________
Jorge wrote:
I remember I was in Miami when it happened. I was posting from the balcony of my apartment overlooking the beach. And I was having an argument with Adamdude.
Post subject: Re: Paul Thomas Anderson's Licorice Pizza (Nov. 26, 2021)
Posted: Fri October 01, 2021 8:48 pm
Future Drummer
Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 4:57 am Posts: 2820
epilogue wrote:
Then what's the priority?
aesthetics
_________________
Jorge wrote:
I remember I was in Miami when it happened. I was posting from the balcony of my apartment overlooking the beach. And I was having an argument with Adamdude.
and then what is the relation of the work in question to others in its tradition?
This is something that I initially wanted to push back on. Not insofar as I disagree with anyone doing it, but just that it didn't resonate with my experience. This isn't something I do. But the more I think about it, the more I wonder if that's true.
Now I'm left wondering, not whether or not I do it, but whether or not I should. I think maybe it depends on exactly what the intent is, ironically.
i don't know how we could come to understand a piece without some broader context in which we can place it. that is, how do you know a painting is a painting, if you've never seen one. our preferences and ideas -- our ability to make descriptive statements or normative judgements -- are always being shaped in part by what we've seen before, on some kind of standard.
I thought you were making a different point. I was more thinking about the tenancy to compare, like when someone says such and such is bad because it didn't do what the other similar movie that I like did. That's something that I resist. The piece should be judged by what it is not what it isn't. Especially if the "isn't" was never part of the intention.
I see the point you're actually making. But bringing this all back to subjectivity I'm not sure the above point totally jibes with what you said about subjectivity earlier that started this great discussion.
Maybe I don't fully understand what you mean.
claims i'm making re: a work of art
1. works of art require intentionality 2. an art work's meaning is synonymous with the intention of the artist. 3. works of art are indifferent to their viewers, their meaning is not contingent on the subjective position of those viewers 4. works of are are legible as art because they exist, to greater or lesser degrees, within a set of agreed upon rules. those rules are the historical conventions of a particular art form. those rules & conventions are always being contested & fucked with.
here is an example of the comparison between works of art i'm advocating for: it makes sense to think about Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang as one piece of the detective genre in film. a critic can arrive at certain judgments based on the formal elements of Kiss Kiss and their interrelation, as well as how those formal elements respond to other films in the detective genre, as well as any films in any other traditions that Kiss Kiss invokes.
a side note: when you make a serious work of art, embedded in the work is a kind of self-defense for it's existence. one way to marshal that self-defense is to counterpose the work with all previous works in whatever tradition it occupies. from that vantage, comparison is impossible to avoid.
I need to think about all of this but I think I disagree. But again I need to time with it.
Post subject: Re: Paul Thomas Anderson's Licorice Pizza (Nov. 26, 2021)
Posted: Fri October 01, 2021 9:57 pm
Future Drummer
Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 4:57 am Posts: 2820
epilogue wrote:
Malloy wrote:
epilogue wrote:
Malloy wrote:
epilogue wrote:
Quote:
and then what is the relation of the work in question to others in its tradition?
This is something that I initially wanted to push back on. Not insofar as I disagree with anyone doing it, but just that it didn't resonate with my experience. This isn't something I do. But the more I think about it, the more I wonder if that's true.
Now I'm left wondering, not whether or not I do it, but whether or not I should. I think maybe it depends on exactly what the intent is, ironically.
i don't know how we could come to understand a piece without some broader context in which we can place it. that is, how do you know a painting is a painting, if you've never seen one. our preferences and ideas -- our ability to make descriptive statements or normative judgements -- are always being shaped in part by what we've seen before, on some kind of standard.
I thought you were making a different point. I was more thinking about the tenancy to compare, like when someone says such and such is bad because it didn't do what the other similar movie that I like did. That's something that I resist. The piece should be judged by what it is not what it isn't. Especially if the "isn't" was never part of the intention.
I see the point you're actually making. But bringing this all back to subjectivity I'm not sure the above point totally jibes with what you said about subjectivity earlier that started this great discussion.
Maybe I don't fully understand what you mean.
claims i'm making re: a work of art
1. works of art require intentionality 2. an art work's meaning is synonymous with the intention of the artist. 3. works of art are indifferent to their viewers, their meaning is not contingent on the subjective position of those viewers 4. works of are are legible as art because they exist, to greater or lesser degrees, within a set of agreed upon rules. those rules are the historical conventions of a particular art form. those rules & conventions are always being contested & fucked with.
here is an example of the comparison between works of art i'm advocating for: it makes sense to think about Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang as one piece of the detective genre in film. a critic can arrive at certain judgments based on the formal elements of Kiss Kiss and their interrelation, as well as how those formal elements respond to other films in the detective genre, as well as any films in any other traditions that Kiss Kiss invokes.
a side note: when you make a serious work of art, embedded in the work is a kind of self-defense for it's existence. one way to marshal that self-defense is to counterpose the work with all previous works in whatever tradition it occupies. from that vantage, comparison is impossible to avoid.
I need to think about all of this but I think I disagree. But again I need to time with it.
no need to agree. i just wanted to clarify my points and resolve any possible contradictions in my previous posts
_________________
Jorge wrote:
I remember I was in Miami when it happened. I was posting from the balcony of my apartment overlooking the beach. And I was having an argument with Adamdude.
Post subject: Re: Paul Thomas Anderson's Licorice Pizza (Nov. 26, 2021)
Posted: Fri October 01, 2021 10:17 pm
Mind Your Tanners
Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 6:02 am Posts: 9712 Location: Tristes Tropiques
Malloy wrote:
epilogue wrote:
Malloy wrote:
epilogue wrote:
Quote:
and then what is the relation of the work in question to others in its tradition?
This is something that I initially wanted to push back on. Not insofar as I disagree with anyone doing it, but just that it didn't resonate with my experience. This isn't something I do. But the more I think about it, the more I wonder if that's true.
Now I'm left wondering, not whether or not I do it, but whether or not I should. I think maybe it depends on exactly what the intent is, ironically.
i don't know how we could come to understand a piece without some broader context in which we can place it. that is, how do you know a painting is a painting, if you've never seen one. our preferences and ideas -- our ability to make descriptive statements or normative judgements -- are always being shaped in part by what we've seen before, on some kind of standard.
I thought you were making a different point. I was more thinking about the tenancy to compare, like when someone says such and such is bad because it didn't do what the other similar movie that I like did. That's something that I resist. The piece should be judged by what it is not what it isn't. Especially if the "isn't" was never part of the intention.
I see the point you're actually making. But bringing this all back to subjectivity I'm not sure the above point totally jibes with what you said about subjectivity earlier that started this great discussion.
Maybe I don't fully understand what you mean.
claims i'm making re: a work of art
1. works of art require intentionality 2. an art work's meaning is synonymous with the intention of the artist. 3. works of art are indifferent to their viewers, their meaning is not contingent on the subjective position of those viewers 4. works of art are legible as art because they exist, to greater or lesser degrees, within a set of agreed upon rules. those rules are the historical conventions of a particular art form. those rules & conventions are always being contested & fucked with.
here is an example of the comparison between works of art i'm advocating for: it makes sense to think about Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang as one piece of the detective genre in film. a critic can arrive at certain judgments based on the formal elements of Kiss Kiss and their interrelation, as well as how those formal elements respond to other films in the detective genre, as well as any films in any other traditions that Kiss Kiss invokes.
a side note: when you make a serious work of art, embedded in the work is a kind of self-defense for it's existence. one way to marshal that self-defense is to counterpose the work with all previous works in whatever tradition it occupies. from that vantage, comparison is impossible to avoid.
1. Yes 2. No 3. Yes and No 4. Yes
_________________
VinylGuy wrote:
its really tiresome to see these ¨good guys¨ talking about any political stuff in tv while also being kinda funny and hip and cool....its just...please enough of this shit.
Post subject: Re: Paul Thomas Anderson's Licorice Pizza (Nov. 26, 2021)
Posted: Fri October 01, 2021 10:26 pm
Mind Your Tanners
Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 6:02 am Posts: 9712 Location: Tristes Tropiques
I didn't read the rest of this thread but I did read that Nicholas Brown book. Anyway. Movie looks dope. Also Boogie Nights is an absolutely essential movie and a stunning rendering of the decline of American empire.
_________________
VinylGuy wrote:
its really tiresome to see these ¨good guys¨ talking about any political stuff in tv while also being kinda funny and hip and cool....its just...please enough of this shit.
Post subject: Re: Paul Thomas Anderson's Licorice Pizza (Nov. 26, 2021)
Posted: Fri October 01, 2021 10:47 pm
Future Drummer
Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 4:57 am Posts: 2820
Mickey wrote:
I didn't read the rest of this thread but I did read that Nicholas Brown book. Anyway. Movie looks dope. Also Boogie Nights is an absolutely essential movie and a stunning rendering of the decline of American empire.
yeah, this is all brown, michaels and fried, or, as i sometimes think of it, the nonsite argument
_________________
Jorge wrote:
I remember I was in Miami when it happened. I was posting from the balcony of my apartment overlooking the beach. And I was having an argument with Adamdude.
I didn't read the rest of this thread but I did read that Nicholas Brown book. Anyway. Movie looks dope. Also Boogie Nights is an absolutely essential movie and a stunning rendering of the decline of American empire.
Essential *because* it's a stunning rendering of...
Post subject: Re: Paul Thomas Anderson's Licorice Pizza (Nov. 26, 2021)
Posted: Sat October 02, 2021 4:25 pm
Future Drummer
Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 4:57 am Posts: 2820
E.H. Ruddock wrote:
Where the fuck have you been, Mickey?
fall term started?
_________________
Jorge wrote:
I remember I was in Miami when it happened. I was posting from the balcony of my apartment overlooking the beach. And I was having an argument with Adamdude.
Post subject: Re: Paul Thomas Anderson's Licorice Pizza (Nov. 26, 2021)
Posted: Sat October 16, 2021 6:41 pm
Mind Your Tanners
Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 6:02 am Posts: 9712 Location: Tristes Tropiques
Malloy wrote:
E.H. Ruddock wrote:
Where the fuck have you been, Mickey?
fall term started?
I've transcended such febrile notions as "term"
_________________
VinylGuy wrote:
its really tiresome to see these ¨good guys¨ talking about any political stuff in tv while also being kinda funny and hip and cool....its just...please enough of this shit.
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