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 Post subject: Re: The Stone Temple Pilots Thread
PostPosted: Sun October 08, 2017 6:42 am 
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Dev wrote:
I kind of agree with trag. We have an obligation to care for each other and think about what is best for the other people in our lives

I think the pilots tried to do that, though.


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 Post subject: Re: The Stone Temple Pilots Thread
PostPosted: Sun October 08, 2017 6:46 am 
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washing machine wrote:
Dev wrote:
I kind of agree with trag. We have an obligation to care for each other and think about what is best for the other people in our lives

I think the pilots tried to do that, though.

I guess it could be argued that they didn't take matters seriously enough. But actually I'm not sure how I feel now. They ultimately did kick him out of the band twice and this second time seemed like it was for good. Maybe they actually did make an honest effort to do the right thing.

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 Post subject: Re: The Stone Temple Pilots Thread
PostPosted: Sun October 08, 2017 6:51 am 
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Dev wrote:
washing machine wrote:
Dev wrote:
I kind of agree with trag. We have an obligation to care for each other and think about what is best for the other people in our lives

I think the pilots tried to do that, though.

I guess it could be argued that they didn't take matters seriously enough. But actually I'm not sure how I feel now. They ultimately did kick him out of the band twice and this second time seemed like it was for good. Maybe they actually did make an honest effort to do the right thing.

I honestly don't know enough about those guys or their on again off again relationship with Weiland to weigh in fairly, but I always understood the band dynamic to be a tough love kind of approach. It's really hard to listen to the brilliant but haunted 12 Bar Blues and that kind of terrible Talk Show album when thinking about what they were all going through as musical brothers at the time.


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 Post subject: Re: The Stone Temple Pilots Thread
PostPosted: Sun October 08, 2017 7:16 am 
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Thinking back to 12 bar blues reminded me that Scott actually was a great lyricist. Did I say otherwise the other day? Scott made the band. Scott slayed. :(

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 Post subject: Re: The Stone Temple Pilots Thread
PostPosted: Sun October 08, 2017 7:37 am 
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That's such a good album.


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 Post subject: Re: The Stone Temple Pilots Thread
PostPosted: Sun October 08, 2017 1:05 pm 
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tragabigzanda wrote:
Birds in Hell wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
It's rare that I expect anyone to agree with me, but I am starting to find it disconcerting that no one else sees the ethical implications of the rich rock stars propping up their drug addict singer for one last tour. That last part from the interview I pasted above is such an awful reflection on the band members, IMO.


Are you sure your timeline isn't off a bit? Scott played his last show with STP in 2012 and was let go in 2013, two and a half years before he died. Here is a video of Scott's last show with STP, and he sounds great. He isn't cutting a rug quite like he did when he was in his twenties, but he certainly isn't the propped-up corpse you imply he was in your post.


The STP reunion lasted four years and produced a new studio album. While I'm sure these guys were glad to be getting major cash flow again, it's probably a little cynical to assume that it was exclusively intended to be some short-term cash grab and that Scott was unwittingly dragged along for the ride at the expense of his health. On some level, there was a desire and an effort to revive STP as a creative unit, and in any long-term scenario, that's going to involve the band members having to balance their personal lives and individual struggles with the demands of their job. Obviously all four band members signed on to the reunion under the impression that they could make it work, and it's entirely possible Scott was clean and making the effort when they agreed to reunite. So if you're arguing that, simply because they knew his history, his bandmates should have either (a) simply refused to tour with him ever again, or (b) monitored him 24/7 and -- in their completely untrained, unprofessional capacity -- identified any potential warning signs and staged an immediate intervention at the first flicker of trouble, I think you're being beyond unreasonable. If you think they should have done their best with what they had and pulled the plug if it seemed like things were heading towards a point of no return, I think it's possible that they did just that.

Steve Albini's "keep it in the neighborhood!" theory might work great if you live in Albini-world and the only music that exists is shitty semi-coherent DIY garage noise where the bands' musical abilities are secondary to whether they ascribe to the correct industry ethics (it also probably makes more sense to him as a resident of Chicago, where a lot of music exists locally). But most normal people throughout history have greatly benefitted from the fact that music travels. I'm guessing Trag doesn't exclusively listen to music made within a 50-mile radius of his home in Montana; Pearl Jam, Fugazi, and PJ Harvey alone take you from coast to coast then across the Atlantic. So I'll buy that theory only from someone bold enough to put his money where his mouth is, including Albini himself, whose recording credits certainly extend well beyond his humble home in Chicago.


Last edited by Kevin Davis on Sun October 08, 2017 1:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Stone Temple Pilots Thread
PostPosted: Sun October 08, 2017 1:32 pm 
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«The singer was found dead on December 3rd after passing away in his sleep on a tour stop in Bloomington, Minnesota. He had been on the road with his new backing band the Wildabouts and was scheduled to play the Medina Entertainment Center in Medina, Minnesota that day but the show was canceled that day.»

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/scott-weiland-cause-of-death-accidental-overdose-20151218


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 Post subject: Re: The Stone Temple Pilots Thread
PostPosted: Sun October 08, 2017 5:20 pm 
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Kevin Davis wrote:
Are you sure your timeline isn't off a bit? Scott played his last show with STP in 2012 and was let go in 2013, two and a half years before he died.


Anders wrote:
«The singer was found dead on December 3rd after passing away in his sleep on a tour stop in Bloomington, Minnesota. He had been on the road with his new backing band the Wildabouts and was scheduled to play the Medina Entertainment Center in Medina, Minnesota that day but the show was canceled that day.»

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/scott-weiland-cause-of-death-accidental-overdose-20151218


Hey look! You guys have convinced me I was wrong. I honestly can't recall if I understood that Scott was touring with his other band when he died, but it feels like new information for me now. But I contend that were it STP that had been touring with Scott at the time of his death, my feelings would stand. And of course now the two relative unknowns who were apparently doing drugs with Scott on the road look like a couple of real shitheads...

But this conversation has brought up some other stuff that I think is still worth digging into:

Kevin Davis wrote:
Steve Albini's "keep it in the neighborhood!" theory might work great if you live in Albini-world and the only music that exists is shitty semi-coherent DIY garage noise where the bands' musical abilities are secondary to whether they ascribe to the correct industry ethics (it also probably makes more sense to him as a resident of Chicago, where a lot of music exists locally).


This is surprisingly myopic thinking for you, KD. Just because you prefer the melodic 4-minute sensibilities of Elvis Costello does not mean that Jesus Lizard is shitty and semi-coherent.

Kevin Davis wrote:
But most normal people throughout history have greatly benefitted from the fact that music travels. I'm guessing Trag doesn't exclusively listen to music made within a 50-mile radius of his home in Montana; Pearl Jam, Fugazi, and PJ Harvey alone take you from coast to coast then across the Atlantic. So I'll buy that theory only from someone bold enough to put his money where his mouth is, including Albini himself, whose recording credits certainly extend well beyond his humble home in Chicago.


Perhaps my "regional" comment was a little too neat and tidy. Of course music travels; it has done that since people first started creating it. But the economics of that travel take multiple routes. My "regional" comment was a ham-fisted way of comparing the Albini plumber-like approach (paid by the hour/gig, and not much else) to an approach based on the residuals generated by publishing rights, which hopefully you can appreciate compels people to create music intended for the broadest commercial appeal, rather than as a discrete reflection of their relationships with their respective communities (and for a quick example of a "non-Albini type of music" that illustrates my point, consider dance/club music, which exists in a community I have no interest in, but seems to be really popular with those who do enjoy dancing until all hours of the morning).

As that relates to my now-abandoned argument against the members of STP, my intended point was that they wouldn't feel compelled with take their sick vocalist on a big tour laden with temptation if they hadn't signed on to the latter approach to creating music.


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 Post subject: Re: The Stone Temple Pilots Thread
PostPosted: Sun October 08, 2017 5:53 pm 
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tragabigzanda wrote:

Hey look! You guys have convinced me I was wrong. I honestly can't recall if I understood that Scott was touring with his other band when he died, but it feels like new information for me now.


Like a month before he died, there were new performance videos on youtube where he could barely stand up, and he needed a roadie to help him put his jacket on, which was big news at the time. He went on the radio and declared that he was fine and it wasn't what it appeared, and some people bought into it. Other people were talking about how shockingly bad his final performances were...one of his last was down the road from where I live and it was very poorly attended. So even I knew that he was on an ill-fated solo tour, and it wasn't a surprise to me when he croaked. Where were you, dude?


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 Post subject: Re: The Stone Temple Pilots Thread
PostPosted: Sun October 08, 2017 6:00 pm 
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Wendy Carlos's Twin wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:

Hey look! You guys have convinced me I was wrong. I honestly can't recall if I understood that Scott was touring with his other band when he died, but it feels like new information for me now.


Like a month before he died, there were new performance videos on youtube where he could barely stand up, and he needed a roadie to help him put his jacket on, which was big news at the time. He went on the radio and declared that he was fine and it wasn't what it appeared, and some people bought into it. Other people were talking about how shockingly bad his final performances were...one of his last was down the road from where I live and it was very poorly attended. So even I knew that he was on an ill-fated solo tour, and it wasn't a surprise to me when he croaked. Where were you, dude?

I've never felt compelled to follow this band outside of spinning their records.


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 Post subject: Re: The Stone Temple Pilots Thread
PostPosted: Sun October 08, 2017 6:38 pm 
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tragabigzanda wrote:
I've never felt compelled to follow this band outside of spinning their records.


Me neither, but it was kind of hard to miss. Everyone was talking about how he was gonna croak soon.


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 Post subject: Re: The Stone Temple Pilots Thread
PostPosted: Sun October 08, 2017 7:51 pm 
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tragabigzanda wrote:
This is surprisingly myopic thinking for you, KD. Just because you prefer the melodic 4-minute sensibilities of Elvis Costello does not mean that Jesus Lizard is shitty and semi-coherent.


I've never listened to Jesus Lizard so I can't comment. My remark was really just more of a blanket snipe at the kind of music Albini seems to drool over, as well as an attempt to zero in on the absurdity in this "music can be self-sustaining within a particular region" concept. Apparently that's not really what you meant, so maybe it's a moot point. But in general I don't share any of your misgivings about musicians working for royalties, promoting themselves to a national or international audience, etc., and am glad that guys like Albini haven't typically driven the history of the music business. I've been way, way more touched by music that's been sold to me by "big" labels than I ever have by anything that's ever come out of my own community, so I'm glad that there are people out there who think that stuff is good enough to be heard outside its originating zip code. Sorry for sounding bitchy about it; my goal wasn't to insult any particular band.


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 Post subject: Re: The Stone Temple Pilots Thread
PostPosted: Sun October 08, 2017 10:26 pm 
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I miss Weiland. I really liked his music.

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 Post subject: Re: The Stone Temple Pilots Thread
PostPosted: Mon October 09, 2017 12:35 am 
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Never change Trag.


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 Post subject: Re: The Stone Temple Pilots Thread
PostPosted: Mon October 09, 2017 5:16 pm 
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Kevin Davis wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
This is surprisingly myopic thinking for you, KD. Just because you prefer the melodic 4-minute sensibilities of Elvis Costello does not mean that Jesus Lizard is shitty and semi-coherent.


My remark was really just more of a blanket snipe at the kind of music Albini seems to drool over, as well as an attempt to zero in on the absurdity in this "music can be self-sustaining within a particular region" concept. Apparently that's not really what you meant, so maybe it's a moot point. But in general I don't share any of your misgivings about musicians working for royalties, promoting themselves to a national or international audience, etc., and am glad that guys like Albini haven't typically driven the history of the music business.I've been way, way more touched by music that's been sold to me by "big" labels than I ever have by anything that's ever come out of my own community, so I'm glad that there are people out there who think that stuff is good enough to be heard outside its originating zip code. Sorry for sounding bitchy about it; my goal wasn't to insult any particular band.

I think you're mistaken on that bold part. ASCAP wasn't formed until 1914, and BMI not until the 1930s; the former was basically created by songwriters, the latter by lawyers and businessmen who saw a market opportunity. Prior to that, the industry was driven by people exactly like Steve Albini: they made money by the gig and for the sale of a tangeable unit (sheet music, LPs), and had no notion of residual passive income.

Also worth considering: the career stability of people like Phil Elverum, who have cultured a core group of followers who will pay a premium for deluxe packaging and physical ephemera, and are happy to drive a couple hours to watch him perform in churches or community centers. With no real income derived from radio play or licensing deals, he's proof positive that one can create boundary-pushing music outside of the modern conventions.

Tangentially, I roll my eyes when people get worked up over the low residuals paid by Spotify, Apple Music, etc. My feeling is: who cares? Why are they claiming entitlement to a residual model that doesn't work in their best interests, and is based on an outdated concept that only represents about 100 years of the music business? If one is inclined to release his musical digitally, I say throw it out there for free and make your money on the road, and from up-front payments for licensing deals.


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 Post subject: Re: The Stone Temple Pilots Thread
PostPosted: Mon October 09, 2017 9:49 pm 
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I don't know, all I know is that I'm glad my hearing "Sgt. Pepper" wasn't dependent on my dad having had a chance meeting with Paul McCartney in 1968. At some point I'm glad that music is a business with a functional distribution model. I don't really care how artists are paid -- I certainly feel that they should be paid, but I don't believe that a royalty model vs. a per-unit model necessarily leads to better or worse music, it seems like either could ultimately tempt artist to create with commercial goals in mind, which is another thing I don't believe necessarily leads to better or worse music.


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 Post subject: Re: The Stone Temple Pilots Thread
PostPosted: Tue October 10, 2017 12:50 am 
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Speaking of Stone Temple Pilots, I listened to Purple front to back for the first time in years last night. Happy to report that it not only held up nicely, but it exceeded expectations for me. Lot more depth on that album than I remembered. Maybe some of my favorite Weiland vocals, too.


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 Post subject: Re: The Stone Temple Pilots Thread
PostPosted: Tue October 10, 2017 2:53 am 
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Purple is fucking awesome and I'm shocked at how many people have overlooked it for so long.

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 Post subject: Re: The Stone Temple Pilots Thread
PostPosted: Tue October 10, 2017 3:58 am 
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PHATJ wrote:
Purple is fucking awesome and I'm shocked at how many people have overlooked it for so long.

It was always my second favorite STP album before they re-formed in the late 90's. Vatican was leaner, and that was more up my alley back when this music was all fresh. No. 4 and Shangri-La hit me at the right time and so the younger me eventually wrote off Purple as "the one with Interstate Love Song." Now I think it's probably their best album.


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 Post subject: Re: The Stone Temple Pilots Thread
PostPosted: Tue October 10, 2017 4:12 am 
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washing machine wrote:
PHATJ wrote:
Purple is fucking awesome and I'm shocked at how many people have overlooked it for so long.

It was always my second favorite STP album before they re-formed in the late 90's. Vatican was leaner, and that was more up my alley back when this music was all fresh. No. 4 and Shangri-La hit me at the right time and so the younger me eventually wrote off Purple as "the one with Interstate Love Song." Now I think it's probably their best album.

Purple and Shangri-La are phenomenal, and I have a hard time choosing my favorite of the two. Tiny Music is a little uneven but still very, very good. No.4 has four songs that I love, the rest not so much. Core is Core, and great for what it is.

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Last edited by PHATJ on Tue October 10, 2017 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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