tree doesn't see color

I think the only way in which color would play a role here is if you believe that in modern day America, entire races are indeed suppressed to the point they don't have the same opportunities to succeed as others.

You're slipping into Rachel Dolezal territory here: "From the comfort of my entire life as a white man, let me pretend for a moment what I would feel if I were a black man."

breaking: midwestern white guy thinks racial inequality is a bunch of bullshit

Just because I'm white doesn't mean you know me and the unique challenges I've faced as a human being.

So what? I can guarantee they're nothing like the typical black male experience.

I don't know this, but if it were entirely true should it change ones goal to hold individual identity more highly than that of group identity? Wouldn't this help solve the problem?

LOL

Sorry, I've read this four times and don't understand what you're saying.

If it is true that the typical black man faces more challenges than I have in my life (no way of knowing), does this change the point that I'm arguing: The goal should be to view people more as who they are as individuals and less as which group they belong to, hopefully to the point where group identity is no longer a thing.

Wait, are you talking about how individuals are viewed by others or are you talking about an individual's own ideas versus that of the ideas held by a group the individual belongs to?

You have to learn to walk before you can run, tree_

Both.

1. I'm not suggesting your suffering is +/- a typical black man's, only that they are inherently different.

2. Your thoughts on group vs. personal identity feels very black-and-white to me; it feels like an ideology. I don't get down with ideologies; I prefer the right attitude for the right time. Example: A large group of women saying "#MeToo! This behavior has to stop!" is a great step for all women; but the political and media assault on Sen. Al Franken felt completely disingenuous given the details of the accusations against him. That right there is a time where the group preceded the individual, and I think the world is a worse place for it.

While I think there's a little more nuance(I know, you don't believe I know what that is or that it even exists) to the Al Franken situation, specifically, I'm basically team trag.

Please don't read this as some sort of dismissive response, either. I just don't have much to add to or argue with regarding what he said above.

Not sure if you're talking to tree or me, so I'll just go on the record as saying that I do believe you are capable of nuance.

I would argue that most peoples' sort of suffering is inherently different, based upon a variety of factors, skin color being only one.

You're right, I don't know much about the state of culture or the world and the specific steps to fix big problems. I try to figure out the best goals to be as healthy and happy an individual as possible and I think despite the state of my life and how closely I get to achieving them, good ideas are still good and bad are still bad, and it's important to constantly seek the good ones out and refine them as best as possible, my tool being personal experience, mostly. As I said before, I don't think viewing my opinions 'from the mouth of a white man' is any more fair than 'from the mouth of a black man' and I think these are harmful and unproductive.

But you are a white man. Your opinions are formed, at least in part, by your being a white man. There's nothing wrong with taking that into account when looking at your opinions.

Taken into account, sure, but the level of account to which it is taken should depend on the whole shape of influences determining my opinions, and for all you know, I've studied, in depth, what it is to be a black man in America (hypothetical, I haven't). Experience isn't everything, and isn't necessarily a reconcilable factor.

But the very vernacular you are using suggests a higher level of education than the majority of black men, and I know enough about your lifestyle (fishing in the evening, gated community, pool, etc) to know that you enjoy a relatively high quality of life. And I've spent enough time working with low-income black people to know that none of that stuff is even on their radar, because:

1. When you're systemically disenfranchised from education, financial resources, good health care;
2. Have low availability of nutrient-rich foods;
3. Are raised in a community rife with criminal convictions, absentee fathers, drug addiction;
4. Are racially profiled and made to feel inferior in even the most benign of circumstances;

...your whole focus simply becomes making it to the next meal without some sort of calamity pulling you further down. And for people who are suffering that lifestyle, some group identity solutions -- like affirmative action, anti-discriminatory financial lending policies, food stamps, etc -- do hold a lot of merit.

The problem then becomes one of engaging the individual, who is now fully plugged into and reliant on the gov't welfare system, to fully understand their unique challenges in hopes of weaning them off that system and empowering them to have greater agency and fulfillment in their lives.