The board's server will undergo upgrade maintenance tonight, Nov 5, 2014, beginning approximately around 10 PM ET. Prepare for some possible down time during this process.
Post subject: Re: Post Random Music-Related Thoughts You Have
Posted: Wed June 12, 2019 9:22 pm
Production Police
Joined: Tue September 24, 2013 5:56 pm Posts: 46872 Location: In the oatmeal aisle wearing a Shellac shirt
Birds in Hell wrote:
Nobody knows how much of the material had been digitally transferred, it's suggested that only a fraction may have been. In any case, it seems as though there wasn't any kind of comprehensive catalogue for what was on the tapes held. Even for those which were transferred, when and how did it occur? A digital transfer made in 2002 (for example) is likely inferior to one made more recently and there's now no possibility that any of that material can be archived or accessed in the future in greater fidelity.
This is a heartbreaking, staggering loss of 20th century culture. I can't think of anything comparable.
I agree that if this is the case, then the situation is much worse. I'd like to think that the major labels paid someone to take care of all this in the early aughts, but maybe I'm being naive.
Post subject: Re: Post Random Music-Related Thoughts You Have
Posted: Wed June 12, 2019 9:23 pm
The Master
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 9:32 pm Posts: 31614 Location: Garbage Dump
tragabigzanda wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
I also think this is a bit myopic: [quote="tragabigzanda”]I'm not sure the masters are that big a deal; I imagine they've been digitally archived already, and as long as that was done really well, and people can forget their emotional attachment to physical media for the sake of this issue, I'm not sure there's much of anything really "lost" with those 2-track master tape.[/quote] This feels sorta like saying we don’t need an original camera negative as long as it’s been transferred to a digital master. But that’s digital technology right now - we have no idea what kind of tech will be available once the future. Imagine if all we had a 2000-era telecine DVD master when a negative was lost. We’ve progressed so far since then.
I’m not an audiophile so I can’t say this is an exact apples-to-apples comparison, but losing the original source material like this definitely seems bad to me.[/quote][/quote] But if it's already backed up with high fidelity digital audio, they can just put it on to new tape.[/quote][/quote][/quote] Like I said, I’m not an audiophile, but surely this can’t be a truly lossless process that would result in a completely identical master?[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote] No it's not, but "true lossless" is overrated. Our ears can only hear so well, and the restorative technology available today is AMAZING. People worried that losing those masters could potentially mean they may not be able to hear the music as good someday are misinformed.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]
I dunno, man. This sounds just like the kind of stuff people incorrectly say about digital film transfer technology all the time. I’m very skeptical.
Post subject: Re: Post Random Music-Related Thoughts You Have
Posted: Wed June 12, 2019 9:26 pm
Production Police
Joined: Tue September 24, 2013 5:56 pm Posts: 46872 Location: In the oatmeal aisle wearing a Shellac shirt
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
I also think this is a bit myopic: [quote="tragabigzanda”]I'm not sure the masters are that big a deal; I imagine they've been digitally archived already, and as long as that was done really well, and people can forget their emotional attachment to physical media for the sake of this issue, I'm not sure there's much of anything really "lost" with those 2-track master tape.[/quote] This feels sorta like saying we don’t need an original camera negative as long as it’s been transferred to a digital master. But that’s digital technology right now - we have no idea what kind of tech will be available once the future. Imagine if all we had a 2000-era telecine DVD master when a negative was lost. We’ve progressed so far since then.
I’m not an audiophile so I can’t say this is an exact apples-to-apples comparison, but losing the original source material like this definitely seems bad to me.[/quote][/quote] But if it's already backed up with high fidelity digital audio, they can just put it on to new tape.[/quote][/quote][/quote] Like I said, I’m not an audiophile, but surely this can’t be a truly lossless process that would result in a completely identical master?[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote] No it's not, but "true lossless" is overrated. Our ears can only hear so well, and the restorative technology available today is AMAZING. People worried that losing those masters could potentially mean they may not be able to hear the music as good someday are misinformed.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote] I dunno, man. This sounds just like the kind of stuff people incorrectly say about digital film transfer technology all the time. I’m very skeptical.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]
Much of what people admire about older recordings are things like tape compression and tape hiss. The former is already present on any archived recordings, and the latter can now be removed with scary efficiency.
Spenno's post about the quality and quantity of those archives is more concerning though. Take everything I've said and apply it to "properly archived master recordings" only.
Post subject: Re: Post Random Music-Related Thoughts You Have
Posted: Wed June 12, 2019 9:27 pm
The Master
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 9:32 pm Posts: 31614 Location: Garbage Dump
Birds in Hell wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
I dunno, man. This sounds just like the kind of stuff people incorrectly say about digital film transfer technology all the time. I’m very skeptical.
You're exactly on the money here LV.
I imagine it's very similar to discussions which occur re: film transfers.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard people say “the human eye can only perceive so much detail” in an effort to dismiss 4K home video. It’s total bunk.
Post subject: Re: Post Random Music-Related Thoughts You Have
Posted: Wed June 12, 2019 9:37 pm
10Club Complaint Department
Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 9:38 pm Posts: 15074
tragabigzanda wrote:
Much of what people admire about older recordings are things like tape compression and tape hiss. The former is already present on any archived recordings, and the latter can now be removed with scary efficiency.
The inherent limitations of analog recording is a totally different and unrelated topic.
In any case, you're again placing an enormous amount of confidence in the digital technology of the day.
There will only ever be one master tape of those original Coltrane recordings.
The hiss and noise reduction techniques widely used in the 90s now seem very destructive.
Who can predict what technological changes may occur in twenty or fifty years time?
Is data necessarily any more secure in the long-term than analog tape? (It's definitely not.)
tragabigzanda wrote:
Spenno's post about the quality and quantity of those archives is more concerning though. Take everything I've said and apply it to "properly archived master recordings" only.
My problem is what constitutes a "properly archived" digital transfer changes over time as new processes become available.
What seemed like good (or "good enough") archiving and transferring techniques in 2002 or 2004 are presumably very inferior to those undertaken today.
Post subject: Re: Post Random Music-Related Thoughts You Have
Posted: Wed June 12, 2019 9:45 pm
Production Police
Joined: Tue September 24, 2013 5:56 pm Posts: 46872 Location: In the oatmeal aisle wearing a Shellac shirt
As I said, I agree except for in those cases where there was high-quality archival done. And the more I look, the more I think that's a very limited selection of music.
Still, I find that people needlessly romanticize analog tape as if it's some fool-proof recording medium. I used to own a 2" tape machine! They are awesome and the sound is great. But also tape sheds and gets stuck to itself. Even if those master recordings survived another 100 years, if they weren't taking the time to clean them up (baking and exercising the tape, and possibly transferring to a new reel) in the early aughts, I doubt they were going to start any time soon.
It is a huge loss, I'm sorry for suggesting otherwise. But I think people put entirely too much importance on analog tape. It instills some great qualities both on musician performance and recorded sound, but it's just a storage medium like anything else.
In the year 2058, most people will be connecting with The Beatles via whatever delivery medium is the most popular. The people shelling out for a vinyl edition of Abbey Road aren't necessarily going to love those songs any more or less, even if there is a subtle difference to the LF + HF compression.
Post subject: Re: Post Random Music-Related Thoughts You Have
Posted: Wed June 12, 2019 10:06 pm
10Club Complaint Department
Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 9:38 pm Posts: 15074
I can't help but also reflect upon the fact that many modern digital session recordings may be essentially unarchivable, given they will rely upon not only the proper storage and cataloguing of the data but also the ability to access and recreate the sessions via whatever software was used at the time. I'm pretty sure Albini has talked about this before, whether in an interview or a forum post. What you've said about tape is true however it's a physical object that will endure essentially in perpetuity with some degree of proper care. Digital files are, in contrast, almost intrinsically ephemeral.
Post subject: Re: Post Random Music-Related Thoughts You Have
Posted: Wed June 12, 2019 11:26 pm
Production Police
Joined: Tue September 24, 2013 5:56 pm Posts: 46872 Location: In the oatmeal aisle wearing a Shellac shirt
Albini has indeed talked about the inherent problems with digital audio sessions, but much of that existed before in the analog realm as well: the settings on mixing consoles and all the outboard gear are only recallable if you take the most detailed notes, which no one does. As for the ubiquity and potential demise of the .wav file, I don’t really have an opinion on that...
Albini has also spoken about the very notion of recorded works as being relatively new. It wasn’t that long ago that the business of music was entirely prescribed to the commerce of musical notation and traveling musicians!
I’ll always be fascinated by the recorded sound, and have an extremely healthy appetite for all the technological minutiae. But nothing has ever convinced me that any of that stuff is more important than the song, and the performance. I don’t expect others to share that view, but just wanted to offer that as a sort of explanation for my relative detachment from this news.
I wonder if, as the (live) YouTube-style performance becomes more common and other technology develops, consumers will eventually get most of their music via live take beamed into their internal sound systems. Both Kanye and Brian Eno have done some interesting things on this front, to use two very different examples.
Post subject: Re: Post Random Music-Related Thoughts You Have
Posted: Thu June 13, 2019 12:52 am
Mind Your Tanners
Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 6:03 pm Posts: 9359 Location: Washington State
Birds in Hell wrote:
Nobody knows how much of the material had been digitally transferred, it's suggested that only a fraction may have been. In any case, it seems as though there wasn't any kind of comprehensive catalogue for what was on the tapes held. Even for those which were transferred, when and how did it occur? A digital transfer made in 2002 (for example) is likely inferior to one made more recently and there's now no possibility that any of that material can be archived or accessed in the future in greater fidelity.
This is a heartbreaking, staggering loss of 20th century culture. I can't think of anything comparable.
A high-profile Los Angeles law firm representing multiple recording artists plans to file legal action as early as next week in response to news that a massive number of original master recordings were destroyed in a 2008 fire at Universal Studios Hollywood.
“We have many very concerned clients,” attorney Howard King, partner in King, Holmes, Paterno & Soriano, said Thursday. “This has a potentially huge impact on their future, coupled with the rather disturbing fact that no one ever told them that their intellectual property may have been destroyed. There is a significant amount of discussion going on, and there will be formal action taken.”
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum
