The board's server will undergo upgrade maintenance tonight, Nov 5, 2014, beginning approximately around 10 PM ET. Prepare for some possible down time during this process.
FAQ    Search

Board index » Word on the Street » News & Debate




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2542 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 128  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Sat January 12, 2013 8:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar
The worst
 Profile

Joined: Thu December 13, 2012 6:31 pm
Posts: 30986
whoops. I thought I read that as Buchanan somewhere in the thread. I didn't click to the original link

_________________
So many tournaments, so little time


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Sat January 12, 2013 10:45 pm 
Offline
AnalLog
 Profile

Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 3:41 am
Posts: 1348
Stip wrote:
whoops. I thought I read that as Buchanan somewhere in the thread. I didn't click to the original link


That was my bad. This is the Buchanan piece:

http://news.yahoo.com/americas-coming-gun-war-080000518.html


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Sun January 13, 2013 2:54 am 
Offline
User avatar
The worst
 Profile

Joined: Thu December 13, 2012 6:31 pm
Posts: 30986
Quote:
Half are owned by veterans and cops. Writes Keene: "Nearly 90 percent of those who own an AR-15 use it for recreational target shooting; 51 percent of AR owners are members of shooting clubs and visit the range regularly; the typical AR owner is not a crazed teenage psychopath, but a 35-plus-year-old, married and has some college education."


variations on this come up a lot, but it kind of misses the point. I would assume most people, even preachy foreign types, understand that most gun owners don't go on married rampages (although I wonder what percentage of the people involved in gun violence as the aggressors are 35+ married, college educated men). The issue is whether or not they social harms caused by the rampages outweigh the benefits from the enjoyment of and/or sense of security derived from owning the gun.

_________________
So many tournaments, so little time


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Wed January 16, 2013 6:16 am 
Offline
User avatar
Rank This Poster
 Profile

Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 9:08 pm
Posts: 4389
Location: 5th floor, Bay 8, position 5851
So how do you get the genie back in the bottle?
I don't think most Americans would have serious issues with handguns for self defense at home or shotguns for hunting. Most Americans agree that assault weapons and rapid fire magazines have no business in the general public hands but they're out there now. How do you get them back from citizens who currently own legally own them? The pro-gun lobby says it's a slippery slope to turn back these laws now but isn't it already a slippery slope the other way now? Who would have thought not that long ago that otherwise rational, sane people would recommend armed security in freakin' elementary schools?
Should our guns laws be one size fits all? Is it realistic to have the same laws in NY, DC or Chicago be the same as, say, rural Alabama or Oklahoma?
I know it's apples & oranges but we have restrictions to certain legal drugs. The more powerful ones are tightly regulated and have restricted access. Yes, criminals still traffic and use these narcotics but is n't the general public is safer because of these laws?
I'm a gun owner and I do believe in our second amendment rights. But I also know that it states well regulated and that Madison & company could have foreseen the level of weaponry we use today. Something needs to be done but I don't know the answer. What gets me is that I've heard people say now is not the time to discuss this so close to a tragedy like Sandy Hook; that it's unethical to use those deaths to force change. No, the time to discuss this issue was before Sandy Hook. Or Aurora. Or Oak Creek WI (8/5/12). Or Minneapolis (9/27/12). Or Seattle (5/20/12). Or Oakland (4/2/12). Or even fairly close to me in Norcross GA (2/22/12). No one doubts there will be another mass shooting, probably fairly soon. And if that's the case than those who died in Newtown did so in vain just as the others have before them. When is enough enough?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Wed January 16, 2013 6:37 am 
Offline
AnalLog
 Profile

Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 3:41 am
Posts: 1348
stip wrote:

Yet we did not give up any natural rights; rather, we retained them. It is the choice of every individual whether to give them up. Neither our neighbors nor the government can make those choices for us, because we are all without the moral or legal authority to interfere with anyone else’s natural rights. Since the government derives all of its powers from the consent of the governed, and since we each lack the power to interfere with the natural rights of another, how could the government lawfully have that power? It doesn’t. Were this not so, our rights would not be natural; they would be subject to the government’s whims.


Philosophically speaking this isn't accurate. Jefferson, Locke, et all acknowledge that states can restrict the full, unfettered execution of our natural rights in the interest of the public (in particular if it helps create stability). That's why we form governments in the first place. It's the entire point of the enterprise. There are also long established legal precedents that say the full use of a right needs to be balanced against the larger interests of society, which is why there are perfectly constitutional laws limiting speech, for instance (libel, slander, public safety).

These restrains are legitimate provided:

A: laws are made via due process through a legislative process accountable to the people
B: Citizens who feel that the laws are so onerous as to consistently and persistently violate their rights are welcome to exit that society



Gun control violates none of these restrictions. And, in fact, you could make a very serious argument based on the people Buchanan is referencing that gun rights are the flimsiest rights there are, and are certainly not natural, since the whole point behind exiting the state of nature and forming a government is so you no longer have to take self protection into your own hands.


Pat Buchanan is a pretty shitty political philosopher


The problem is that the state makes no guarantees on your security. What sort of bargain is it to surrender natural rights without some sort of societal guarantee?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Wed January 16, 2013 5:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar
The worst
 Profile

Joined: Thu December 13, 2012 6:31 pm
Posts: 30986
There is never an ironclad guarantee for any right. Returning fire is not the same thing as safety either. The question is whether you are safer/more likely to have your rights protected under the various possible arrangements that are in front of you, and the amount of control you can exert over the circumstances you confront. The 101 Social Contract theory that would have been in the minds of the federalists and anti-federalists alike would have argued that, provided there were sufficient checks on the state through separated powers, checks, democratic procedures, accountability mechanisms, etc., we would be better off with a set of circumstances that has us give up the near total freedom found in the state of nature (including the ability to decide for yourself when to use force) and allow society to collectively make and enforce these decisions. And whether or not it is doing this effectively is determined by looking at the overall performance. The clear failure of law enforcement in this case does not negate the overall point, just like a particular US military failure does not invalidate the need for a military. It should obviously encourage us to look very closely at what failed and to try and fix it.

_________________
So many tournaments, so little time


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Wed January 16, 2013 5:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Site Admin
 Profile

Joined: Wed December 12, 2012 10:33 pm
Posts: 5480
I really liked the end of this article:

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_an ... ses.2.html

Quote:
America is not a particularly violent country, according to Matthew Miller of the Harvard School of Public Health. The rate of violent crimes falls right in the middle of the rates in other high-income nations. American kids are not more likely to get into fights at school, and Americans are not more likely to be mentally ill than people in comparable countries.

“What we do have is guns. Especially handguns. And we have more homicides,” Miller said. “Our firearm homicide rate is an order of magnitude higher than in these other countries. Our rates of homicides with non-gun mechanisms—knives, bats, whatever—is pretty much right where they are in other high income countries.”

And guns make all the difference, Miller said. “We’re not more violent, but when we are violent, we kill.”


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Wed January 16, 2013 5:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar
RM Elitist
 Profile

Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 8:43 pm
Posts: 13387
Green Habit wrote:
I really liked the end of this article:

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_an ... ses.2.html

Quote:
America is not a particularly violent country, according to Matthew Miller of the Harvard School of Public Health. The rate of violent crimes falls right in the middle of the rates in other high-income nations. American kids are not more likely to get into fights at school, and Americans are not more likely to be mentally ill than people in comparable countries.

“What we do have is guns. Especially handguns. And we have more homicides,” Miller said. “Our firearm homicide rate is an order of magnitude higher than in these other countries. Our rates of homicides with non-gun mechanisms—knives, bats, whatever—is pretty much right where they are in other high income countries.”

And guns make all the difference, Miller said. “We’re not more violent, but when we are violent, we kill.”



Well, we've never been known for doing things half way.

_________________
dimejinky99 wrote:
Hang on I check on my Grindr


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Wed January 16, 2013 6:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Future Drummer
 Profile

Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 3:24 pm
Posts: 3076
Location: Death Machine Inc's HQ
Green Habit wrote:
I really liked the end of this article:

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_an ... ses.2.html

Quote:
America is not a particularly violent country, according to Matthew Miller of the Harvard School of Public Health. The rate of violent crimes falls right in the middle of the rates in other high-income nations. American kids are not more likely to get into fights at school, and Americans are not more likely to be mentally ill than people in comparable countries.

“What we do have is guns. Especially handguns. And we have more homicides,” Miller said. “Our firearm homicide rate is an order of magnitude higher than in these other countries. Our rates of homicides with non-gun mechanisms—knives, bats, whatever—is pretty much right where they are in other high income countries.”

And guns make all the difference, Miller said. “We’re not more violent, but when we are violent, we kill.”




From that article:
Quote:
Maybe people who own guns should be licensed, Vernick said. Every state has a requirement that cosmetologists are licensed, he pointed out, but only 17 states require gun licenses.



:shake: :shake:

_________________
the sentinel remains vigilant


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Wed January 16, 2013 7:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar
The worst
 Profile

Joined: Thu December 13, 2012 6:31 pm
Posts: 30986
I know. When will the government stop hounding cosmetologists...

_________________
So many tournaments, so little time


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Wed January 16, 2013 8:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Legacy of Love
 WWW  Profile

Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 5:33 pm
Posts: 61101
Location: The applebees on haggerty.
stip wrote:
I know. When will the government stop hounding cosmetologists...

Image


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Wed January 16, 2013 8:39 pm 
Offline
AnalLog
 Profile

Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 3:41 am
Posts: 1348
stip wrote:
There is never an ironclad guarantee for any right. Returning fire is not the same thing as safety either. The question is whether you are safer/more likely to have your rights protected under the various possible arrangements that are in front of you, and the amount of control you can exert over the circumstances you confront. The 101 Social Contract theory that would have been in the minds of the federalists and anti-federalists alike would have argued that, provided there were sufficient checks on the state through separated powers, checks, democratic procedures, accountability mechanisms, etc., we would be better off with a set of circumstances that has us give up the near total freedom found in the state of nature (including the ability to decide for yourself when to use force) and allow society to collectively make and enforce these decisions. And whether or not it is doing this effectively is determined by looking at the overall performance. The clear failure of law enforcement in this case does not negate the overall point, just like a particular US military failure does not invalidate the need for a military. It should obviously encourage us to look very closely at what failed and to try and fix it.


The point isn't that the police failed-its that they had no obligation to even try to protect those women. I'm not demanding the impossibly high bar of certainty that the state will defend me, merely that it Is obliged to try. I also don't trust cops to be the only ones armed as there is already enough of a double standard when it comes to police wrongdoing.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Wed January 16, 2013 9:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar
The worst
 Profile

Joined: Thu December 13, 2012 6:31 pm
Posts: 30986
simple schoolboy wrote:
stip wrote:
There is never an ironclad guarantee for any right. Returning fire is not the same thing as safety either. The question is whether you are safer/more likely to have your rights protected under the various possible arrangements that are in front of you, and the amount of control you can exert over the circumstances you confront. The 101 Social Contract theory that would have been in the minds of the federalists and anti-federalists alike would have argued that, provided there were sufficient checks on the state through separated powers, checks, democratic procedures, accountability mechanisms, etc., we would be better off with a set of circumstances that has us give up the near total freedom found in the state of nature (including the ability to decide for yourself when to use force) and allow society to collectively make and enforce these decisions. And whether or not it is doing this effectively is determined by looking at the overall performance. The clear failure of law enforcement in this case does not negate the overall point, just like a particular US military failure does not invalidate the need for a military. It should obviously encourage us to look very closely at what failed and to try and fix it.


The point isn't that the police failed-its that they had no obligation to even try to protect those women. I'm not demanding the impossibly high bar of certainty that the state will defend me, merely that it Is obliged to try. I also don't trust cops to be the only ones armed as there is already enough of a double standard when it comes to police wrongdoing.


that is worrisome for sure, but an armed citizenry, especially armed for that purpose, seems like it would only escalate that problem.

In the context of the founding it is also a highly suspect reading of the second amendment. On the other hand, I am of the opinion that the founders opinion of the second amendment is also not especially relevant, so at least for me that's more of historical interest (or trivia) than anything else.

_________________
So many tournaments, so little time


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Thu January 17, 2013 4:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar
AnalLog
 Profile

Joined: Wed January 16, 2013 10:46 pm
Posts: 1600
Location: Wrigleyville
NRA Fights Legislation That Would Ban Gun Sales To Those Currently On Killing Sprees

http://www.theonion.com/video/nra-fights-legislation-that-would-ban-gun-sales-to,30927/


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Wed January 23, 2013 1:34 am 
Offline
A Return To Form
 Profile

Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 10:19 pm
Posts: 187
Who wants to talk about the racist history of gun control in this country?

Sic 'em, simple schoolboy...


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Wed January 23, 2013 2:49 am 
Offline
AnalLog
 Profile

Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 3:41 am
Posts: 1348
Didn't you hear? The 2nd amendment was created so racist white men could put down slave rebellions. It's not pertinent that the descendents of those racist white men later limited the scope of that right to reduce the ability of newly freed blacks to defend themselves and again when they had to gall to demand civil rights.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Wed January 23, 2013 3:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Broken Tamborine
 Profile

Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 3:54 pm
Posts: 331
simple schoolboy wrote:
Didn't you hear? The 2nd amendment was created so racist white men could put down slave rebellions. It's not pertinent that the descendents of those racist white men later limited the scope of that right to reduce the ability of newly freed blacks to defend themselves and again when they had to gall to demand civil rights.


Yeah, but that Dajngo was a real scary guy.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Thu January 24, 2013 2:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Future Drummer
 Profile

Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 3:24 pm
Posts: 3076
Location: Death Machine Inc's HQ
Man in Black wrote:
Who wants to talk about the racist history of gun control in this country?



Here's some obvious racism about control from FrontPage mag:

America Doesn’t Have a Gun Problem, It Has a Gang Problem
December 31, 2012 By Daniel Greenfield Comments (162)

Chicago’s murder numbers have hit that magic 500. Baltimore’s murder toll has passed 200. In Philly, it’s up to 324, the highest since 2007. In Detroit, it’s approaching 400, another record. In New Orleans, it’s almost at 200. New York City is down to 414 from 508. In Los Angeles, it’s over 500. In St. Louis it’s 113 and 130 in Oakland. It’s 121 in Memphis and 76 in Birmingham.

Washington, D.C., home of the boys and girls who can solve it all, is nearing its own big 100.

Those 12 cities alone account for nearly 3,200 dead and nearly a quarter of all murders in the United States. And we haven’t even visited sunny Atlanta or chilly Cleveland.

These cities are the heartland of America’s real gun culture. It isn’t the bitter gun-and-bible clingers in McCain and Romney territory who are racking up a more horrifying annual kill rate than Al Qaeda; it’s Obama’s own voting base.

Chicago, where Obama delivered his victory speech, has homicide numbers that match all of Japan and are higher than Spain, Poland and pre-war Syria. If Chicago gets any worse, it will find itself passing the number of murders for the entire country of Canada.

Chicago’s murder rate of 15.65 per 100,000 people looks nothing like the American 4.2 rate, the Midwestern 4.5 or the Illinois’ 5.6 rates, but it does look like the murder rates in failed countries like Rwanda, Sierra Leone and Zimbabwe. To achieve Chicago’s murder rate, African countries usually have to experience a bloody genocidal civil war or decades of tyranny.

But Chicago isn’t even all that unique. Or the worst case scenario. That would be New Orleans which at an incredible 72.8 murder rate is ten times higher than the national average. If New Orleans were a country, it would have the 2nd highest murder rate in the world, beating out El Salvador.

Louisiana went red for Romney 58 to 40, but Orleans Parish went blue for Obama 80 to 17.

St. Louis has a murder rate just a little lower than Belize. Baltimore has a worse murder rate than South Africa and Detroit has a worse murder rate than Colombia. Obama won both St. Louis and Baltimore by comfortable margins. He won Detroit’s Wayne County 73 to 26.

Homicide rates like these show that something is broken, but it isn’t broken among the Romney voters rushing to stock up on assault rifles every time Obama begins threatening their right to buy them; it’s broken among Obama’s base.

Any serious conversation about gun violence and gun culture has to begin at home; in Chicago, in Baltimore, in New York City, in Los Angeles and in Washington, D.C.

Voting for Obama does not make people innately homicidal. Just look at Seattle which is agonizing over its 26 murders. That’s about the same number of murders as East St. Louis which has only 27,000 people to Seattle’s 620,000.

So what is happening in Chicago to drive it to the gates of hell ahead of Zimbabwe and Rwanda?

A breakdown of the Chicago killing fields shows that 83% of those murdered in Chicago last year had criminal records. In Philly, it’s 75%. In Milwaukee it’s 77% percent. In New Orleans, it’s 64%. In Baltimore, it’s 91%. Many were felons who had served time. And as many as 80% of the homicides were gang related.

Chicago’s problem isn’t guns; it’s gangs. Gun control efforts in Chicago or any other major city are doomed because gangs represent organized crime networks which stretch down to Mexico, and trying to cut off their gun supply will be as effective as trying to cut off their drug supply.

America’s murder rate isn’t the work of the suburban and rural homeowners who shop for guns at sporting goods stores and at gun shows, and whom news shows profile after every shooting, but by the gangs embedded in the urban areas controlled by the Democratic machine. The gangs who drive up America’s murder rate look nothing like the occasional mentally ill suburban white kid who goes off his medication and decides to shoot up a school. Lanza, like most serial killers, is a media aberration, not the norm.

National murder statistics show that blacks are far more likely to be killers than whites and they are also far more likely to be killed. The single largest cause of homicides is the argument. 4th on the list is juvenile gang activity with 676 murders, which combined with various flavors of gangland killings takes us nearly to the 1,000 mark. America has more gangland murders than Sierra Leone, Eritrea and Puerto Rico have murders.

Our national murder rate is not some incomprehensible mystery that can only be attributed to the inanimate tools, the steel, brass and wood that do the work. It is largely the work of adult males from age 18 to 39 with criminal records killing other males of that same age and criminal past.

If this were going on in Rwanda, El Salvador or Sierra Leone, we would have no trouble knowing what to make of it, and silly pearl-clutching nonsense about gun control would never even come up. But this is Chicago, it’s Baltimore, it’s Philly and NOLA; and so we refuse to see that our major cities are in the same boat as some of the worst trouble spots in the world.

Lanza and Newtown are comforting aberrations. They allow us to take refuge in the fantasy that homicides in America are the work of the occasional serial killer practicing his dark art in one of those perfect small towns that always show up in murder mysteries or Stephen King novels. They fool us into thinking that there is something American about our murder rate that can be traced to hunting season, patriotism and bad mothers.

But go to Chicago or Baltimore. Go where the killings really happen and the illusion comes apart.

There is a war going on in America between gangs of young men who bear an uncanny resemblance to their counterparts in Sierra Leone or El Salvador. They live like them, they fight for control of the streets like them and they kill like them.

America’s horrific murder rate is a result of the transformation of major American cities into Sierra Leone, Somalia, Rwanda and El Salvador. Our murder rate now largely consists of criminals killing criminals.

As David Kennedy, the head of the Center for Crime Prevention and Control, put it, “The majority of homicide victims have extensive criminal histories. This is simply the way that the world of criminal homicide works. It’s a fact.”

America is, on a county by county basis, not a violent country, just as it, on a county by county basis, did not vote for Obama. It is being dragged down by broken cities full of broken families whose mayors would like to trash the Bill of Rights for the entire country in the vain hope that national gun control will save their cities, even though gun control is likely to be as much help to Chicago or New Orleans as the War on Drugs.

Obama’s pretense that there needs to be a national conversation about rural American gun owners is a dishonest and cynical ploy that distracts attention from the real problem that he and politicians like him have sat on for generations.

We do not need to have a conversation about the NRA. We need to have a conversation about Chicago.

_________________
the sentinel remains vigilant


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Thu January 24, 2013 7:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Worst Moderator
 Profile

Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 2:48 pm
Posts: 47816
Gangs are so 1990's.

_________________
Clouuuuds Rolll byyy...BANG BANG BANG BANG


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Thu January 24, 2013 7:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar
The Master
 Profile

Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 2:04 pm
Posts: 48890
Location: Sector 7-G
E.H. Ruddock wrote:
Gangs are so 1990's.

Pfft, have you seen The Wire?


Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2542 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 128  Next

Board index » Word on the Street » News & Debate


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
It is currently Fri April 20, 2018 6:09 pm