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ABNorman, all kidding aside, in a previous post you implied you were not impressed by the arguments of either side. What made you choose?
I think I addressed this in an earlier post, but too lazy to hunt it down. Essentially:
1) I was (and remain) unconvinced that we'll give up our access to the single market, so the immigration talk from Leave was bluster (and indeed, they've already started backtracking on this, amongst other things). I thought it'd be really dumb to give up any control over regulations governing that single market, but still largely have our trade in the area dominated by it. I also don't believe that immigration has been the massive issue in the UK that it has been made out to be. I'm not sure I agree with the element that claim it's essentially a solution to the UK's age problem, but I think it's pretty close to null impact.
2) Environmentally, the EU's done a lot more for the UK than our government, and I have no confidence that a Tory government (that's already been very much behind fracking, for example) would seek to continue or improve that work. As a middle-class citizen with a comfortable life that won't be able to afford a house any time soon unless house prices absolutely TANK, there aren't many issues in UK politics that directly affect me. The environment is one of them.
3) Even though they were obviously coming from a place of "let's keep the stable status quo, you guys", I was willing to place more trust in the majority of experts and institutions with more knowledge and resources than me.
4) I'm a globalist, in the sense that I believe we should be doing more together to tackle global issues like climate change and overpopulation. And in the sense that I HATE blind patriotism/nationalism. I'm not sure these post-Brexit arguments from educated middle-class conservatives on the net can be retroactively applied to what was undeniably a campaign built on fear, anger and hatred (Remain only had one of those to blast the public with).
5) The personalities of either side also played a part. Boris Johnson comes across as a friendly dope but that masks a disagreeable (to me) mid-to-far right core. Nigel Farage speaks for the large contingent of intolerant people and deserves very little of my time. The prominent figures praising leave were people like Trump, Le Pen, etc - these are not people I have much in common with politically. The Remainers were almost as divisive, but outside of the politicians, a lot of people whose opinions I respect were in favour of remaining.
6) This is not a point I like to rabble on about, because it has been the source of personal issues, but I am fairly antagonistic towards England, even though I live here. The fact that Scotland (part of my heritage) and Europe (a diversity of people and views) were attached did provide some solace, and part of me was reluctant to put that at jeopardy. Not a huge part of my voting strategy, but definitely part of it.
Seems like a reasonable perspective, thanks for that.
_________________ "The fatal flaw of all revolutionaries is that they know how to tear things down but don't have a f**king clue about how to build anything."
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_________________ "The fatal flaw of all revolutionaries is that they know how to tear things down but don't have a f**king clue about how to build anything."
If only it was a simple political decision. The reality is that there are social, immigration, economic ramifications. The rise of racist comments/incidents over the past few days is shocking.
I have little doubt that in the medium to long term the UK (or be it England alone or with Wales) will be a major economic player as always. Even if the EU fails the main players will thrive and survive. They always have and will. The short term however has hit quite a few people. And the vitriol from both camps has created a rather toxic environment to implement the necessary change.
It's fascinating and will be so for a while. This may be up there with Wall St, USSR crumbling, the German reunification.
THE DECISION BY U.K. voters to leave the EU is such a glaring repudiation of the wisdom and relevance of elite political and media institutions that their failures have become a prominent part of the storyline. Media reaction to the Brexit vote falls into two general categories: (1) earnest, candid attempts to understand what motivated voters to make this choice, even if that means indicting one’s own establishment circles, and (2) petulant, self-serving, simple-minded attacks on disobedient pro-leave voters for being primitive, xenophobic bigots (and stupid to boot), all to evade any reckoning with their own responsibility. Virtually every reaction that falls into the former category emphasizes the profound failures of Western establishment factions; these institutions have spawned pervasive misery and inequality, only to spew condescending scorn at their victims when they object.
The Los Angeles Times’s Vincent Bevins, in an outstanding and concise analysis, wrote that “both Brexit and Trumpism are the very, very wrong answers to legitimate questions that urban elites have refused to ask for thirty years”; in particular, “since the 1980s the elites in rich countries have overplayed their hand, taking all the gains for themselves and just covering their ears when anyone else talks, and now they are watching in horror as voters revolt.” The British journalist Tom Ewing, in a comprehensive Brexit explanation, said the same dynamic driving the U.K. vote prevails in Europe and North America as well: “the arrogance of neoliberal elites in constructing a politics designed to sideline and work around democracy while leaving democracy formally intact.”
Absolutely. I knew the EU was beneficial to corporations over ordinary people but not to that extent.
I was talking to a friend in London the other day about how the machinations of the campaigns seriously detracted from the possible outcomes either way. Lies, propaganda, self interest and blatant racism all played out.
Not 10 minutes ago, two guys in a motorbike ramped the kerb 5ft in front of me, shot behind a black woman, reach out to assault/steal from her, and then zoomed off. She was OK (luckily her umbrella had been between them and her - it was buggered), but it's despairing to see, whether or not it was racially motivated (there were plenty of white folk walking that kerb...)
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