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 Post subject: Ethno-Masochism in the West.
PostPosted: Tue January 26, 2016 9:29 pm 
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Is it a problem to always think of the west in negative terms?

Here Noam Chomsky refers to the US and Britain as the greatest evils in the world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbkqk5W ... re&t=8m10s

Is that fair? I get that our colonialism/imperialism is evil, but we also provide a high quality of life for our own citizens. People in the west enjoy many liberties that others do not.

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Last edited by Dev on Tue January 26, 2016 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ethno-Masochism in the West.
PostPosted: Tue January 26, 2016 9:35 pm 
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I think that very nearly all political postulating occurs in just two steps:

1. Feel that an idea or philosophy is true
2. Experience confirmation bias

I don't believe I've seen string evidence that being more informed makes you less susceptible to this.

Even if you are Noam Chomsky

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 Post subject: Re: Ethno-Masochism in the West.
PostPosted: Tue January 26, 2016 9:39 pm 
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McParadigm wrote:
I think that very nearly all political postulating occurs in just two steps:

1. Feel that an idea or philosophy is true
2. Experience confirmation bias

I don't believe I've seen string evidence that being more informed makes you less susceptible to this.

Even if you are Noam Chomsky
You could make an argument that being more informed makes you more susceptible.


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 Post subject: Re: Ethno-Masochism in the West.
PostPosted: Tue January 26, 2016 9:40 pm 
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I really hate Noam Chomsky. He says everything like such a c*nt.

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 Post subject: Re: Ethno-Masochism in the West.
PostPosted: Tue January 26, 2016 9:41 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
McParadigm wrote:
I think that very nearly all political postulating occurs in just two steps:

1. Feel that an idea or philosophy is true
2. Experience confirmation bias

I don't believe I've seen strong evidence that being more informed makes you less susceptible to this.

Even if you are Noam Chomsky
You could make an argument that being more informed makes you more susceptible.

Absolutely.

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 Post subject: Re: Ethno-Masochism in the West.
PostPosted: Tue January 26, 2016 9:42 pm 
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Dev wrote:
I really hate Noam Chomsky. He says everything like such a c*nt.
Chomsky (and Howard Zinn is another good example) said things that were revelatory and probably necessary back in their younger days when deification US and the West in general was a lot more common and problematic. Now it just seems real tired.


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 Post subject: Re: Ethno-Masochism in the West.
PostPosted: Tue January 26, 2016 9:45 pm 
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I'm happy for your meta-analysis of political opinion, but feel like you didn't really engage the original debate, mcparry.

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 Post subject: Re: Ethno-Masochism in the West.
PostPosted: Tue January 26, 2016 9:45 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
Dev wrote:
I really hate Noam Chomsky. He says everything like such a c*nt.
Chomsky (and Howard Zinn is another good example) said things that were revelatory and probably necessary back in their younger days when deification US and the West in general was a lot more common and problematic. Now it just seems real tired.

this is basically all liberalism in the 21st century.

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 Post subject: Re: Ethno-Masochism in the West.
PostPosted: Tue January 26, 2016 9:45 pm 
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Last edited by BurtReynolds on Mon March 06, 2023 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ethno-Masochism in the West.
PostPosted: Tue January 26, 2016 9:45 pm 
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It was very interesting for me to read the criticisms that Howard Zinn had of the New Deal in his youth, and the way age and the collapse of liberalism's public legitimacy transformed his read.

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 Post subject: Re: Ethno-Masochism in the West.
PostPosted: Tue January 26, 2016 9:46 pm 
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Dev wrote:
Green Habit wrote:
Dev wrote:
I really hate Noam Chomsky. He says everything like such a c*nt.
Chomsky (and Howard Zinn is another good example) said things that were revelatory and probably necessary back in their younger days when deification US and the West in general was a lot more common and problematic. Now it just seems real tired.

this is basically all liberalism in the 21st century.

That's more or less how I feel about Bernie.


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 Post subject: Re: Ethno-Masochism in the West.
PostPosted: Tue January 26, 2016 9:49 pm 
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turned2black wrote:
Dev wrote:
Green Habit wrote:
Dev wrote:
I really hate Noam Chomsky. He says everything like such a c*nt.
Chomsky (and Howard Zinn is another good example) said things that were revelatory and probably necessary back in their younger days when deification US and the West in general was a lot more common and problematic. Now it just seems real tired.

this is basically all liberalism in the 21st century.

That's more or less how I feel about Bernie.

But socialism IS the only solution to capitalism, so while I can't vouch for the rhetoric he uses, I am a fan of Bernie's pseudo-socialism.

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 Post subject: Re: Ethno-Masochism in the West.
PostPosted: Tue January 26, 2016 9:51 pm 
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stip wrote:
It was very interesting for me to read the criticisms that Howard Zinn had of the New Deal in his youth, and the way age and the collapse of liberalism's public legitimacy transformed his read.
Is there any good link to that? Criticism of the New Deal usually comes from the right, but it's been interesting recently to hear some criticisms from the left as well--usually centered around the fact that it entrenched Jim Crow for another couple decades.


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 Post subject: Re: Ethno-Masochism in the West.
PostPosted: Tue January 26, 2016 9:55 pm 
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Dev wrote:
I'm happy for your meta-analysis of political opinion, but feel like you didn't really engage the original debate, mcparry.

My own opinion, also deftly manipulated by those dominant undercurrents that are faulty human perception, is that modern western civilization is built on a series of self-confirmed lies. Lies that say that what we have...the comfort, the access, the safety and quiet...is normal. Lies that say that if life is harder and crueler elsewhere then that's a tragedy because that's not what life is supposed to be.

I don't have faith in the life of that lie here, let alone hope that it can be spread the whole world wide.

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 Post subject: Re: Ethno-Masochism in the West.
PostPosted: Tue January 26, 2016 9:59 pm 
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McParadigm wrote:
Dev wrote:
I'm happy for your meta-analysis of political opinion, but feel like you didn't really engage the original debate, mcparry.

My own opinion, also deftly manipulated by those dominant undercurrents that are faulty human perception, is that modern western civilization is built on a series of self-confirmed lies. Lies that say that what we have...the comfort, the access, the safety and quiet...is normal. Lies that say that if life is harder and crueler elsewhere then that's a tragedy because that's not what life is supposed to be.

I don't have faith in the life of that lie here, let alone hope that it can be spread the whole world wide.


but why exactly is it a lie? because of what it costs? or is it simply that you believe there is no virtue in a comfortable life?

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 Post subject: Re: Ethno-Masochism in the West.
PostPosted: Wed January 27, 2016 2:52 am 
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Dev wrote:
Is it a problem to always think of the west in negative terms?


Yes.

Dev wrote:
Here Noam Chomsky refers to the US and Britain as the greatest evils in the world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbkqk5W ... re&t=8m10s

Is that fair?


No.

96583UP wrote:
Does Noam Chomsky believe that football is training in authoritarian jingoism?


Yes.

96583UP wrote:
Is Noam Chomsky familiar with Chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE)?


Yes.

96583UP wrote:
How does Noam Chomsky feel about anarcho-syndicalism?


That it's a great idea.

96583UP wrote:
If it's such a great idea, why aren't we doing it?


Because we are spectators being manipulated by a representative democracy that exists to protect the minority of the opulent.

96583UP wrote:
How does me playing football fix that?


Because you get to impact the outcome of the play.

96583UP wrote:
But I could end up with CTE and perpetually irritable and many of the simple things in life will be ruined by a fog of misery?


Welcome to the world of Noam Chomsky.

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 Post subject: Re: Ethno-Masochism in the West.
PostPosted: Wed January 27, 2016 11:48 am 
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Dev wrote:
Is it a problem to always think of the west in negative terms?

Here Noam Chomsky refers to the US and Britain as the greatest evils in the world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbkqk5W ... re&t=8m10s

Is that fair? I get that our colonialism/imperialism is evil, but we also provide a high quality of life for our own citizens. People in the west enjoy many liberties that others do not.



I would ask you:

Why do you feel the need to view the "west" in negative terms? Who taught you to feel this way?

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 Post subject: Re: Ethno-Masochism in the West.
PostPosted: Wed January 27, 2016 10:37 pm 
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b_i_revisited wrote:
Dev wrote:
Is it a problem to always think of the west in negative terms?

Here Noam Chomsky refers to the US and Britain as the greatest evils in the world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbkqk5W ... re&t=8m10s

Is that fair? I get that our colonialism/imperialism is evil, but we also provide a high quality of life for our own citizens. People in the west enjoy many liberties that others do not.



I would ask you:

Why do you feel the need to view the "west" in negative terms? Who taught you to feel this way?


Oh, I'm against it. I think the west is the best place in the world. I think contemporary liberalism is seriously misguided.

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