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 Post subject: The God topic
PostPosted: Fri January 18, 2013 4:48 am 
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Although I'm sure it would have come up in some other thread anyway, this is too good of a discussion to not continue on its own right. Here's a good summary of my own beliefs (from http://orthodoxwiki.org/Panentheism):

"Most specifically, these Churches teach that God is not the "watchmaker God" or mechanical God of philosophy found in Western European Enlightenment. Likewise, they teach that God is not the "stage magician God" who only shows up when performing miracles. Instead, the teaching of both these Churches is that God is not merely necessary to have created the universe, but that His active presence is necessary in some way for every bit of creation, from smallest to greatest, to continue to exist at all. That is, God's energies maintain all things and all beings, even if those beings have explicitly rejected Him. His love of creation is such that he will not withdraw His presence, which would be the ultimate form of slaughter, not merely imposing death but ending existence, altogether. By this token, the entirety of creation is sanctified, and thus no part of creation can be considered innately evil. This does not deny the existence of evil in a fallen universe, only that it is not an innate property of creation. "

Discuss.


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 Post subject: Re: The God topic
PostPosted: Fri January 18, 2013 7:54 am 
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Confessor wrote:
Although I'm sure it would have come up in some other thread anyway, this is too good of a discussion to not continue on its own right. Here's a good summary of my own beliefs (from http://orthodoxwiki.org/Panentheism):

"Most specifically, these Churches teach that God is not the "watchmaker God" or mechanical God of philosophy found in Western European Enlightenment. Likewise, they teach that God is not the "stage magician God" who only shows up when performing miracles. Instead, the teaching of both these Churches is that God is not merely necessary to have created the universe, but that His active presence is necessary in some way for every bit of creation, from smallest to greatest, to continue to exist at all. That is, God's energies maintain all things and all beings, even if those beings have explicitly rejected Him. His love of creation is such that he will not withdraw His presence, which would be the ultimate form of slaughter, not merely imposing death but ending existence, altogether. By this token, the entirety of creation is sanctified, and thus no part of creation can be considered innately evil. This does not deny the existence of evil in a fallen universe, only that it is not an innate property of creation. "

Discuss.


Realizing that there is not a lot of people who will self identify as "Panentheist", similiar views are a common fallback position amongst Abrahamists who reject the vindictive God that fundamentalist believe in.

As such it often seems like an intentional effort for some theists to distance themselves from what they perceive as the baseness of certain other theists.

Anytime you start talking about a supernatural being it's all about faith, though, I say whatever helps you sleep at night.


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 Post subject: Re: The God topic
PostPosted: Sat January 19, 2013 2:45 am 
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Confessor wrote:
Although I'm sure it would have come up in some other thread anyway, this is too good of a discussion to not continue on its own right. Here's a good summary of my own beliefs (from http://orthodoxwiki.org/Panentheism):

"Most specifically, these Churches teach that God is not the "watchmaker God" or mechanical God of philosophy found in Western European Enlightenment. Likewise, they teach that God is not the "stage magician God" who only shows up when performing miracles. Instead, the teaching of both these Churches is that God is not merely necessary to have created the universe, but that His active presence is necessary in some way for every bit of creation, from smallest to greatest, to continue to exist at all. That is, God's energies maintain all things and all beings, even if those beings have explicitly rejected Him. His love of creation is such that he will not withdraw His presence, which would be the ultimate form of slaughter, not merely imposing death but ending existence, altogether. By this token, the entirety of creation is sanctified, and thus no part of creation can be considered innately evil. This does not deny the existence of evil in a fallen universe, only that it is not an innate property of creation. "

Discuss.


Anon?


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 Post subject: Re: The God topic
PostPosted: Sun January 20, 2013 5:44 am 
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Ancient folk saying: "You can catch the Devil, but you can't hold him long."


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 Post subject: Re: The God topic
PostPosted: Mon January 21, 2013 5:23 am 
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turned2black wrote:
Confessor wrote:
Although I'm sure it would have come up in some other thread anyway, this is too good of a discussion to not continue on its own right. Here's a good summary of my own beliefs (from http://orthodoxwiki.org/Panentheism):

"Most specifically, these Churches teach that God is not the "watchmaker God" or mechanical God of philosophy found in Western European Enlightenment. Likewise, they teach that God is not the "stage magician God" who only shows up when performing miracles. Instead, the teaching of both these Churches is that God is not merely necessary to have created the universe, but that His active presence is necessary in some way for every bit of creation, from smallest to greatest, to continue to exist at all. That is, God's energies maintain all things and all beings, even if those beings have explicitly rejected Him. His love of creation is such that he will not withdraw His presence, which would be the ultimate form of slaughter, not merely imposing death but ending existence, altogether. By this token, the entirety of creation is sanctified, and thus no part of creation can be considered innately evil. This does not deny the existence of evil in a fallen universe, only that it is not an innate property of creation. "

Discuss.


Anon?


Indeed.


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 Post subject: Re: The God topic
PostPosted: Mon January 21, 2013 5:31 am 
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Man in Black wrote:
Confessor wrote:
Although I'm sure it would have come up in some other thread anyway, this is too good of a discussion to not continue on its own right. Here's a good summary of my own beliefs (from http://orthodoxwiki.org/Panentheism):

"Most specifically, these Churches teach that God is not the "watchmaker God" or mechanical God of philosophy found in Western European Enlightenment. Likewise, they teach that God is not the "stage magician God" who only shows up when performing miracles. Instead, the teaching of both these Churches is that God is not merely necessary to have created the universe, but that His active presence is necessary in some way for every bit of creation, from smallest to greatest, to continue to exist at all. That is, God's energies maintain all things and all beings, even if those beings have explicitly rejected Him. His love of creation is such that he will not withdraw His presence, which would be the ultimate form of slaughter, not merely imposing death but ending existence, altogether. By this token, the entirety of creation is sanctified, and thus no part of creation can be considered innately evil. This does not deny the existence of evil in a fallen universe, only that it is not an innate property of creation. "

Discuss.


Realizing that there is not a lot of people who will self identify as "Panentheist", similiar views are a common fallback position amongst Abrahamists who reject the vindictive God that fundamentalist believe in.

As such it often seems like an intentional effort for some theists to distance themselves from what they perceive as the baseness of certain other theists.

Anytime you start talking about a supernatural being it's all about faith, though, I say whatever helps you sleep at night.


As the quote says, I'm not Panentheist as such, since I do not hold reality to be a part of who God essentially is, but rather a presence of His energies (ie one way how His superessential ontology is able to present in effect). Also, many Orthodox, Catholic mystics, and even Protestants subscribe to this view, as well as Sufis, Taoists, some Buddhists and Hindu, Sikh, etc.

It could very well be that this view is effective in distancing myself from, say, literalist Conservative Protestantism, and it could also very well be that, psychologically, this presentation serves as a good cushion for those recognizing the absurdity of traditional rightist American theology without having to slip into atheism outright. But that does not mean such a view is *false.* It's no invention, and most of Orthodox Christian intellectual history is no stranger to these ideas at all.


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 Post subject: Re: The God topic
PostPosted: Mon January 28, 2013 1:53 pm 
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It's about time I get the fuck out of this state... and country.

AMENDING TITLE 15, CHAPTER 7, ARTICLE 1, ARIZONA REVISED STATUTES, BY ADDING SECTION 15-701.03; RELATING TO SCHOOL CURRICULUM.

BEGINNING IN THE 2013‑2014 SCHOOL YEAR, IN ADDITION TO FULFILLING THE COURSE OF STUDY AND ASSESSMENT REQUIREMENTS PRESCRIBED IN THIS CHAPTER, BEFORE A PUPIL IS ALLOWED TO GRADUATE FROM A PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL IN THIS STATE, THE PRINCIPAL OR HEAD TEACHER OF THE SCHOOL SHALL VERIFY IN WRITING THAT THE PUPIL HAS RECITED THE FOLLOWING OATH:

I, _________, DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC, THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; THAT I TAKE THIS OBLIGATION FREELY, WITHOUT ANY MENTAL RESERVATION OR PURPOSE OF EVASION; AND THAT I WILL WELL AND FAITHFULLY DISCHARGE THESE DUTIES; SO HELP ME GOD.

http://legiscan.com/AZ/text/HB2467


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 Post subject: Re: The God topic
PostPosted: Mon January 28, 2013 9:49 pm 
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turned2black wrote:
It's about time I get the fuck out of this state... and country.

AMENDING TITLE 15, CHAPTER 7, ARTICLE 1, ARIZONA REVISED STATUTES, BY ADDING SECTION 15-701.03; RELATING TO SCHOOL CURRICULUM.

BEGINNING IN THE 2013‑2014 SCHOOL YEAR, IN ADDITION TO FULFILLING THE COURSE OF STUDY AND ASSESSMENT REQUIREMENTS PRESCRIBED IN THIS CHAPTER, BEFORE A PUPIL IS ALLOWED TO GRADUATE FROM A PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL IN THIS STATE, THE PRINCIPAL OR HEAD TEACHER OF THE SCHOOL SHALL VERIFY IN WRITING THAT THE PUPIL HAS RECITED THE FOLLOWING OATH:

I, _________, DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC, THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; THAT I TAKE THIS OBLIGATION FREELY, WITHOUT ANY MENTAL RESERVATION OR PURPOSE OF EVASION; AND THAT I WILL WELL AND FAITHFULLY DISCHARGE THESE DUTIES; SO HELP ME GOD.

http://legiscan.com/AZ/text/HB2467


That's the oath you take when you enlist in the armed services or hold public office. :?


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 Post subject: Re: The God topic
PostPosted: Mon January 28, 2013 9:58 pm 
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Is the citizenship one different?


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 Post subject: Re: The God topic
PostPosted: Thu January 31, 2013 3:00 pm 
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From the American Bible Society a listing of the most and least Bible minded (daily reading of the Bible & belief in its accuracy) US cities.

Most Bible-Minded Cities
1. Knoxville, Tenn.
2. Shreveport, La.
3. Chattanooga, Tenn.
4. Birmingham, Ala.
5. Jackson, Miss.
6. Springfield, Mo.
7. Charlotte, N.C.
8. Roanoke/Lynchburg, Va.
9. Huntsville, Ala.
10. Charleston, W.Va.

Least Bible-Minded Cities
1. Providence, R.I./ New Bedford, Mass.
2. Albany, N.Y.
3. Burlington, Vt.
4. Portland, Maine
5. Hartford/New Haven, Conn.
6. Boston, Mass.
7. San Francisco
8. Phoenix, Ariz.
9. Cedar Rapids, Iowa
10. Buffalo, N.Y.


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 Post subject: Re: The God topic
PostPosted: Thu January 31, 2013 3:25 pm 
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Biff Pocoroba wrote:
From the American Bible Society a listing of the most and least Bible minded (daily reading of the Bible & belief in its accuracy) US cities.

Most Bible-Minded Cities

8. Roanoke/Lynchburg, Va.


Lynchburg is indeed awful :gomez:

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 Post subject: Re: The God topic
PostPosted: Thu January 31, 2013 3:42 pm 
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Chloe wrote:
Biff Pocoroba wrote:
From the American Bible Society a listing of the most and least Bible minded (daily reading of the Bible & belief in its accuracy) US cities.

Most Bible-Minded Cities

8. Roanoke/Lynchburg, Va.
Lynchburg is indeed awful :gomez:
I wonder if you're as surprised as I am that there weren't any Northwest cities in the bottom ten. The Catholic fallout in New England is quite the phenomenon.


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 Post subject: Re: The God topic
PostPosted: Thu January 31, 2013 4:14 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
Chloe wrote:
Biff Pocoroba wrote:
From the American Bible Society a listing of the most and least Bible minded (daily reading of the Bible & belief in its accuracy) US cities.

Most Bible-Minded Cities

8. Roanoke/Lynchburg, Va.
Lynchburg is indeed awful :gomez:
I wonder if you're as surprised as I am that there weren't any Northwest cities in the bottom ten. The Catholic fallout in New England is quite the phenomenon.

Yes and no. There are more small, rural towns in the NW, those are the towns that revolve around church generally speaking. It's probably pretty balanced in the NW. Not seeing Portland or Seattle (as examples) in the bottom ten isn't totally shocking - lots of transplants from the smaller towns in both of those cities.
I think Boston/Providence being in the bottom 10 was more surprising to me to be honest.

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 Post subject: Re: The God topic
PostPosted: Thu January 31, 2013 4:19 pm 
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double post

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Last edited by Chloe on Thu January 31, 2013 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The God topic
PostPosted: Thu January 31, 2013 4:43 pm 
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Here's a link to the whole list of 96 metro areas:

http://www.americanbible.org/content/what-are-americas-most-bible-minded-cities

I'm most surprised Salt Lake City is towards the bottom.


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 Post subject: Re: The God topic
PostPosted: Thu January 31, 2013 6:22 pm 
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Here's a dispute I have with the Man upstairs:

Recently I've been dealing with a problem which requires a lot of humility on my part. I don't want to go into details. I'll just say that I could have took the easy road, but I'm sucking it up. And I wonder, "Should I be proud of my humility? Should I be happy with it? Is there a reward for my humbleness?"

Because to tell you the truth, I'm pissed off. I'm not happy. I have to turn this attitude around real quick if anything good is going to come out of it.

So just know that yours or my conscience (which I see as a reflection of God's good doing) is an entity all its own, and it's an asshole.


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 Post subject: Re: The God topic
PostPosted: Thu January 31, 2013 6:29 pm 
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Biff Pocoroba wrote:
Here's a link to the whole list of 96 metro areas:

http://www.americanbible.org/content/what-are-americas-most-bible-minded-cities

I'm most surprised Salt Lake City is towards the bottom.

I do see Seattle and Portland. And by no surprise, the smaller Spokane is higher on the list but not by much :lol: I really think there's something to this small town bible thumping nonsense.
Do you think politics plays into this as well? I don't have much to go by as I've lived mostly in Christian dominate areas (Eastern Oregon & Lynchburg, VA both of which are w/out question GOP hot zones).

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 Post subject: Re: The God topic
PostPosted: Thu January 31, 2013 6:39 pm 
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Chloe wrote:
Biff Pocoroba wrote:
Here's a link to the whole list of 96 metro areas:

http://www.americanbible.org/content/what-are-americas-most-bible-minded-cities

I'm most surprised Salt Lake City is towards the bottom.

I do see Seattle and Portland. And by no surprise, the smaller Spokane is higher on the list but not by much :lol: I really think there's something to this small town bible thumping nonsense.
Do you think politics plays into this as well? I don't have much to go by as I've lived mostly in Christian dominate areas (Eastern Oregon & Lynchburg, VA both of which are w/out question GOP hot zones).


and damn is it annoying


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 Post subject: Re: The God topic
PostPosted: Thu January 31, 2013 6:44 pm 
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Being an atheist, for once I'm quite pleased to see Buffalo bringing up the rear.

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 Post subject: Re: The God topic
PostPosted: Thu January 31, 2013 7:23 pm 
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That list is stupid. I live in PHX and can tell you The Jesus is everywhere.
The only thing I can think of is that there is some kind of anti-Mormon bias to the list. We have 2 temples here and a ward in every neighborhood.
Not to mention all the mega-churches and cars with "Real Men Love Jesus" bumper stickers.


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