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 Post subject: Islam and the West
PostPosted: Wed January 07, 2015 11:30 pm 
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We may as well have this thread.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/08/world ... oting.html

Quote:
Terror Attack on Paris Newspaper, Charlie Hebdo, Kills 12

PARIS — At least two masked gunmen on Wednesday burst into the Paris offices of a satirical newspaper that had drawn threats for lampooning Islam, killing 12 people in a methodical hail of gunfire, fleeing by car as they battled on the street with the police and setting off a wide manhunt for the killers.

The deputy mayor of Paris, Patrick Klugman, told CNN late Wednesday that three suspects had been identified and that two were brothers. French media reported the brothers were born in Paris. There were conflicting accounts about whether any suspects had been arrested.

The terrorist attack, on the newspaper Charlie Hebdo, was among the deadliest in postwar France, setting the nation on edge, sending shock waves through Europe and threatening to deepen the distrust of France’s large Muslim population. The attack came at a time when Islamic radicalism has become a central concern of security officials across Europe.

The attack, carried out with automatic weapons, was carried out with an unusual degree of military-style precision. President François Hollande of France called it a display of extraordinary “barbarism” that was “without a doubt” an act of terrorism. He declared Thursday a national day of mourning.

He also raised the nationwide terror alert to its highest status, saying several terrorist attacks had been thwarted in recent weeks as security officials here and elsewhere in Europe have grown increasingly wary of the return of young citizens from Syria and Iraq, where they went to wage jihad.

The French authorities put some schools on lockdown for the day, and added security at houses of worship, news media offices and transportation centers, and conducted random searches on the Paris Metro.

The Paris prosecutor, François Molins, said witnesses said the attackers had screamed “Allahu akbar!” or “God is great” during the attack, which the police characterized as a “slaughter.”


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 Post subject: Re: Islam and the West
PostPosted: Thu January 08, 2015 2:04 am 
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France has nukes, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Islam and the West
PostPosted: Thu January 08, 2015 2:30 am 
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The footage of them shooting the cop on the street is horrific.

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 Post subject: Re: Islam and the West
PostPosted: Thu January 08, 2015 2:46 am 
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Not sure if this is a good or bad idea...call for May 20th to be a #DrawMohammadDay...

the rolling news all over europe is pushing the free speech debate and how it shouldnt be intimidated by any of this.

#JeSuisCharlie
#CharlieHebdo

on twitter if you want to see international cartoonists & artists responses to todays events.

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 Post subject: Re: Islam and the West
PostPosted: Thu January 08, 2015 2:48 am 
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dimejinky99 wrote:
Not sure if this is a good or bad idea...call for May 20th to be a #DrawMohammadDay...

the rolling news all over europe is pushing the free speech debate and how it shouldnt be intimidated by any of this.

#JeSuisCharlie
#CharlieHebdo

on twitter if you want to see international cartoonists & artists responses to todays events.

yeah my feed was full of that stuff today. I take it these guys were actually pretty huge in France? Seems like if John Stewart was killed here or something.

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 Post subject: Re: Islam and the West
PostPosted: Thu January 08, 2015 2:49 am 
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If any of you are interested, there was a 26 page thread on the related subject back in 2006:

http://archive.theskyiscrape.com/viewto ... =7&t=32826


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 Post subject: Re: Islam and the West
PostPosted: Thu January 08, 2015 2:52 am 
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yeah big time.
But it wasn't any right-wing anti-islam agenda they pushed, they went for everyone, politicians, popes, the works.
France's relationship with it's Muslim citizens has always been fraught with difficulties. This will only make things worse.
The anti-islamic movement all across Europe is becoming quite frightening. Those marches in germany especially.

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 Post subject: Re: Islam and the West
PostPosted: Thu January 08, 2015 2:56 am 
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Green Habit wrote:
If any of you are interested, there was a 26 page thread on the related subject back in 2006:

http://archive.theskyiscrape.com/viewto ... =7&t=32826

Thanks GH, I'll take a look.


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 Post subject: Re: Islam and the West
PostPosted: Thu January 08, 2015 3:09 am 
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dimejinky99 wrote:
Not sure if this is a good or bad idea...call for May 20th to be a #DrawMohammadDay...

the rolling news all over europe is pushing the free speech debate and how it shouldnt be intimidated by any of this.

dimejinky99 wrote:
France's relationship with it's Muslim citizens has always been fraught with difficulties. This will only make things worse.

On these topics, I'm inclined to agree with Theodore Dalrymple, probably my most-read essayist and columnist, in City Journal today:

http://www.city-journal.org/2015/eon0107td.html

Quote:
Equating Prudence with Cowardice
Theodore Dalrymple
7 January 2015


How long would it take for a Western journalist to blame the Charlie Hebdo murders on French colonialism and journalistic insensitivity to the feelings of Muslims? Not nearly as long, I suspected, as it would take a journalist in the Muslim world to blame them on the legacy of Mohammed and Islam.

And I was right. It took less than four hours for an associate editor of the Financial Times, Tony Barber, to post a piece on the website of his august publication blaming the journalists and cartoonists of the satirical French magazine (and the two policemen as well?) for their own deaths. Here is what he originally wrote and posted, though he later edited out the final clause:

[Charlie Hebdo] has a long record of mocking, baiting and needling French Muslims . . . [This] is merely to say that some common sense would be useful at publications such as Charlie Hebdo . . . which purport to strike a blow for freedom when they provoke Muslims, but are actually just being stupid.

According to this perverted logic, if the relatives of the 12 murdered men were now to storm into the offices of the Financial Times and shoot 12 staff members because of the considerable provocation offered by Tony Barber, it will prove only that Barber had just been stupid.

There is, of course, a relevant difference between the two cases: when he wrote his disgraceful little article, Barber knew perfectly well that the relatives of the murdered men would not behave in this fashion, and that therefore he was not “just being stupid.” Hence, he equates prudence with cowardice, a sure way to encourage (though not perhaps to provoke, in his sense of the word) more such attacks.

Barber’s implicit recognition that some people react differently to provocation is not flattering to those whom he wishes to exculpate, in so far as it implies that they are childishly unable to accept the kind of mockery that is perfectly normal in a free country. In his first paragraph, he writes that the attack on Charlie Hebdo will “not surprise anyone familiar with the rising tensions among France’s 5 million or more Muslim citizens and the poisonous legacy of French colonialism in North Africa.” In other words, France had it coming, though it offers a far better life to its 5 million Muslims than they would be likely to find anywhere in the Muslim world, including in their countries of descent. The Muslims owe nothing, no loyalty, to France.

Such thinking is by no means unique to journalists for the Financial Times. Edwy Plenel, a former editor of Le Monde, published a book late last year called Pour les Musulmans (For the Muslims), which resolutely refuses to acknowledge that a problem exists with Muslims, other than that they have been treated badly—though France seems to have accommodated immigrants from around the world without similar tensions.

Barber ends with a rhetorical flourish at odds with the rest of his piece. “The murders in Paris throw down a challenge to French politicians and citizens to stand up for the republic’s core values and defeat political violence without succumbing to the siren songs of the far right.” Here, I can only agree. The French must, in true Voltairean fashion, defend to the death the right of their satirists to mock, bait, and needle Muslims, in France and elsewhere.


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 Post subject: Re: Islam and the West
PostPosted: Thu January 08, 2015 3:48 am 
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dimejinky99 wrote:
yeah big time.
But it wasn't any right-wing anti-islam agenda they pushed, they went for everyone, politicians, popes, the works.
France's relationship with it's Muslim citizens has always been fraught with difficulties. This will only make things worse.
The anti-islamic movement all across Europe is becoming quite frightening. Those marches in germany especially.


Its funny that the PEGIDA movement in Germany is led by a potential nutcase as well.


if it was up to me id throw all these Al Qaeda fuckers and Neo nazi like dudes in the sarlacc pit.


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 Post subject: Re: Islam and the West
PostPosted: Thu January 08, 2015 3:50 am 
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That's what lemmy says about the whole middle east thing...build a stadium around it and sell tickets.

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 Post subject: Re: Islam and the West
PostPosted: Thu January 08, 2015 8:36 am 
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fakeplasticdreams wrote:
dimejinky99 wrote:
yeah big time.
But it wasn't any right-wing anti-islam agenda they pushed, they went for everyone, politicians, popes, the works.
France's relationship with it's Muslim citizens has always been fraught with difficulties. This will only make things worse.
The anti-islamic movement all across Europe is becoming quite frightening. Those marches in germany especially.


Its funny that the PEGIDA movement in Germany is led by a potential nutcase as well.


if it was up to me id throw all these Al Qaeda fuckers and Neo nazi like dudes in the sarlacc pit.


That's an odd moral equivalence you present, unless I'm unaware of an ongoing international campaign on the part of PEGIDA to kill muslims and the like.


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 Post subject: Re: Islam and the West
PostPosted: Thu January 08, 2015 12:54 pm 
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http://www.juancole.com/2015/01/sharpening-contradictions-satirists.html

"The only effective response to this manipulative strategy (as Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani tried to tell the Iraqi Shiites a decade ago) is to resist the impulse to blame an entire group for the actions of a few and to refuse to carry out identity-politics reprisals."


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 Post subject: Re: Islam and the West
PostPosted: Thu January 08, 2015 1:42 pm 
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enimmi wrote:
http://www.juancole.com/2015/01/sharpening-contradictions-satirists.html

"The only effective response to this manipulative strategy (as Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani tried to tell the Iraqi Shiites a decade ago) is to resist the impulse to blame an entire group for the actions of a few and to refuse to carry out identity-politics reprisals."


read this..
Islamic scholar threatens Irish publications with legal action if they publish offending cartoon
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/is ... 91821.html

A senior Islamic cleric in Ireland has issued a warning against reproducing Charlie Hebdo's front page depiction of the Prophet Muhammad, after the massacre of journalists and police at the magazine's offices.

Dr Ali Selim of the Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland threatened legal action against Irish journalists who post pictures of the page to their Twitter accounts and warned media not to reproduce it. The page contained a picture of Muhammad kissing another man, with the line "love is stronger than hate".

Speaking to Niall Boylan on Classic Hits 4FM, Dr Selim said that posting the picture would not put the presenter's life in danger, but he would pursue legal action.

"No, your life will not be in danger, but definitely we will check the Irish law, if there is any legal channel against you, we'll take it," the Islamic scholar said. He added that the message that love is stronger than hate was acceptable but not if it was accompanied by a cartoon of the prophet. Speaking to the Herald after the interview, Dr Selim reiterated his position. "This [The image] is offensive," he said.

He described the Paris incident as an atrocity and insisted that he believed in freedom of expression and speech. However, he said that the image was offensive to equality.






So, when noncombatant members of that group in a country not involved in any way in the conflict make statements saying their going to sue whichever of that countries papers that print the cartoons, how then can the shit not fall on all the group living in that country?
This guy is a lecturer at Trinity college in Dublin and a leading spokesman for Muslims in Ireland. How dare he..with a single stroke he's made it ugly here for Muslims living here all their lives. Ours was a freedom hard won, and the ridiculous blasphemy laws hes threatening to sue under could possibly work for him, which means it'll get even uglier for innocent Muslims here. We won't hand that freedom over to people who are trying to force their agenda on us. Not a chance.
They don't do themselves any fuckin favours it seems.

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 Post subject: Re: Islam and the West
PostPosted: Thu January 08, 2015 1:47 pm 
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and in response University Times today:

Publish And Be Damned
Bodger at 10:04 am January 8, 2015

Eoin O’Dell, an Associate Professor in Trinity’s Law School, writes:

Under section 36 [of the Defamation Act, 2009], there are three main issues to be considered. First, it would be necessary to establish that the publication of the cartoons is grossly abusive or insulting in relation to matters held sacred by Islam. Since many Muslims believe that visual depictions of the Prophet should be prohibited, satirical cartoons of the Prophet are very likely to meet that standard.

Second, it would be necessary to establish that the publisher “intends” to cause outrage among a substantial number of Muslims. This would be hard to establish where the intention behind the publication is to illustrate a major news item.

Third, even if that is established, it is a defence for the publisher to prove that “a reasonable person would find genuine literary, artistic, political, scientific, or academic value” in the publication, a rubric which would be easily satisfied by a major news story.

Finally, even if the terms of the offence are made out, the question would arise as to how the offence could be prosecuted. Dr Selim might make a complaint to the Gardaí and, even if they investigate, it would be a matter for the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) whether to prosecute or not. And although, at common law, any individual has the right to initiate a private criminal prosecution, the DPP can decide to discontinue it.

That there is some superficial plausibility to Dr Selim’s misconceived claim demonstrates just how unwise the blasphemy provisions of section 36 the Defamation Act, 2009 actually are. A referendum to remove the reference to blasphemy from the Constitution is promised for this year. If it succeeds, section 36 should be immediately repealed. Thereafter, we should be able to discuss and debate issues of faith and politics, rather than seek to have the law come down on one side or the other of such intractable issues. That is what democracy is all about. And, in that way, we honour the memories of those who died in the attack on Charlie Hebdo.
Any Attempt to Prosecute Irish Publication of Charlie Hebdo Mohammed Cartoons is Doomed to Fail ( Eoin O’Dell, The University Times)

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 Post subject: Re: Islam and the West
PostPosted: Thu January 08, 2015 3:31 pm 
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This moronic fucking clown..

Image

Image


Made all the worse by the tweets sent supporting him..

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 Post subject: Re: Islam and the West
PostPosted: Thu January 08, 2015 5:44 pm 
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That last tweet is pretty hilarious. I love when people resort to saying, "Hey, I'm smart! Look at my IQ!"


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 Post subject: Re: Islam and the West
PostPosted: Thu January 08, 2015 6:03 pm 
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Oh lord. :shake:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2 ... /21417461/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressiv ... -massacre/


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 Post subject: Re: Islam and the West
PostPosted: Thu January 08, 2015 8:34 pm 
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Some of the forums i'm on here, talking about this, a lot of posters are asking this same question..why is absolutely everyone else getting the blame for this apart from those who did it?
France's intelligence services should have known ahead of time, the cartoon people shouldnt have been allowed push their buttons for so long etc etc.
It is almost like media outlets are afraid to tackle it head on..

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Last edited by dimejinky99 on Thu January 08, 2015 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Islam and the West
PostPosted: Thu January 08, 2015 8:35 pm 
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dimejinky99 wrote:
Some of the forums i'm oin here, talking about this, a lot of posters are asking this same question..why is absolutely everyone else getting the blame for this apart from those who did it?
France's intelligence services should have known ahead of time, the cartoon people shouldnt have been allowed push their buttons for so long etc etc.
It is almost like media outlets are afraid to tackle it head on..

It's a fucking ridiculous argument. It's like saying a rape victim was asking for it because of what they were wearing. Victim-blaming horseshit.


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