I don't think many men or women should be judged for the personal choices they make in their life that harm no one. If you're only happy in a traditional relationship, thumbs up. If you're only happy in a seemingly more egalitarian relationship, thumbs up. Just figure out what makes you happy and go do it. Man or woman, you have the agency to go do it and be happy. Just please don't judge others who do the same.

I think this is a really strange POV. Why is it "anti-feminist" if you prefer or enjoy so called "traditionally" female dominated activities? Isn't feminism about equality? Shouldn't we then have a CHOICE as to what we do? A woman shouldn't be put down, or called "anti-feminist" because she is happy in a traditional gender role, or if she enjoys traditional "lady" things (Like baking, embroidery, etc). You can be a feminist and still be a kick ass Donna Reed type super mom if that's truly what makes you happy inside.

As for "Good," I can only guess it's as subjective as the guy who's doing the choosing. And a lot of people look good on paper, but have rotten attitudes or personalities, etc. Or someone who is a mess in the kitchen could be an extremely awesome mother.

I guess the general idea is whatever your gender, don't be a dick.

yeah chud, don't be a dick.

It is too bad that, where there was this division of labour that basically valued traditional male (worker) roles and failed to value traditional female (nurturer) roles, we reacted only by opening up the worker roles to all people and doing little else. Instead of saying, "Okay, we should be recognizing the unique challenges and extreme importance of something like parenthood," we instead went, "Nobody should have to be only a parent all the time. That's debasing. Everybody into the workforce!" Now you do have these families where the women have full time day jobs and are still judged (or feel judged) by the state of their home/family….but where men do not, and don't value that kind of work enough to take part.

Sorry.

Im glad a woman said it.


A woman making the choice to take on traditional roles (either some, or all) is not in anyway a negative choice.

that's not how i took pete's posts before - i took it as these were women who were not really cognizant of the fact that they perceived, or were perceived they had obligations to doing all these traditionally oriented things while their husbands/boyfriends etc basically did nothing but hung out, watched football and screamed things like 'go make me a sammich' or whatever.

I don't have any problem with women who get satisfaction from the tremendous work and effort it takes to cook and clean and raise and hold together a family- my mom was a mom who did ALL those things, exceedingly well, even without the satisfaction from it that she might have had in a professional role, and she was more intelligent than roughly 90% of the population of the earth.
I think it has more to do with the idea that this is part of their responsibility as a woman, and it's not only fine that the men they're involved with don't participate in that, but that they in some ways openly denigrate those women as a result of the work they do...

But that's still a choice THEY are making. A personality flaw they have decided they can live with- especially if he's mowing the lawn on saturday while she shops, or takes out the trash. And it's definitely not the place of ANYONE to judge that if they otherwise respect their decision making- especially if they don't know the details behind it.

and a lot of "obligations" in a relationship (especially one involving co habitation) come from the fact that inevitably two people will value different things. For instance, Mrs. Skitch HATES dirty floors. She'll vacuum and mop every other day. I dont want a filthy floor, but am okay with a weekly or so cleaning- which I never have to do, because it's always already done. I like clean shiny counters in the kitchen- so I clean them daily. Those have become defacto obligations for both of us. So while an outsider might perceive her cleaning while he's watching football, the cleaning she's doing might be something that is a priority to her. It's kinda condescending to think that an otherwise smart, intelligent, independent woman is being forced into an "obligation" strictly out of acceptance of gender roles.

i don't think you and i are actually arguing about that at all, @skitch.
i don't think i'm arguing, period, actually.

i think (and I don't know so please do correct me as needed) you're saying - it's not your relationship so don't make any kind of assumption about how the gender roles are being assigned, appreciated, taken for granted, put down, or otherwise judged.

that's fine, i don't think any relationship is the same as any other in the details.

what i'm saying is i don't think it's an unfair action on pete's part to observe some behavior that he finds bothersome to him within the public face of those relationships.

and i also say that there are, in fact, relationships that are horribly lop-sided and lacking in common appreciation for the roles being played. further, i do believe that this kind of thing can happen quite easily within a relationship (especially as it ages? matures? whatever it is) if there isn't some initial (AND ONGOING) understanding and a healthy dose of mutual respect between those two people.

and i can vouch for my own relationship experience in that i never thought i'd end up doing the kinds of things within the co habitation portion of a relationship that i ended up doing - especially since my (at the time) significant other was more neurotic about cleanliness and order than i've ever been, but people change, and relationships change, and roles within a relationship change as well, sometimes without cognizance of those changes that occur, until it one day dawns on one of the two people, shit man, i'm doing an awful lot around here and the other person... not so much.

or sometimes that awareness never happens at all because it's gradual and life is busy and messy as hell...

which is not say that this is specifically my own hard feelings directing my opinions, because even i am capable of rational analysis and drawing conclusions intellectually without allowing them to be overly shaded by personal experience, which i suppose you'll either have to believe that or not...

last, i think to always assume that there's a fair amount of give and take within ALL relationships is just plain silly. people just aren't that well behaved, or that capable of looking outside of themselves at all times to be considerate to the ones they love. it's just unrealistic.
sure, these women make their own choices, but if you think those choices are always followed by the exact outcomes they expected? haha, it almost NEVER happens that way in my experience.

ongoing ripples, undetermined repercussions, bad karma? I dunno what it is, but i'm lucky if maybe a tenth of the choices i've made in my life have had the outcomes i've expected in making those choices.

so I guess there's something to argue about in that, but honestly i don't think it's all that odd, what i'm saying. i think it's maybe different from what you've encountered, and lucky you if that's the case, but still... it's not inconceivable that a lack of cognizance of a situation could be a factor in how that relationship is playing itself out. and if so, then pete's observation is pretty sensitive to what's going on beneath the surface rather than stupid assumption.

I don't think we're arguing. We're discussing.

Specifically related to the outcomes not turning out as expected is human nature. That is not a gender specific problem when you introduce cohabitation. It's never EXACTLY what you expect, and rarely is the reason behind it gender bias.

Guys, my girlfriend makes gourmet cupcakes

feminism is a government conspiracy; you can't tax housewifery.