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 Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
PostPosted: Wed October 25, 2017 4:25 pm 
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4/5 wrote:
In the United States the following statements are true about people labeled as living in poverty:
96% say that their children were never hungry in the last year because they couldn't afford food.

A self-reporting statistic with a qualifier attached.

First: Food insecurity. Food insecurity is defined as limited or uncertain availability of nutritiously adequate and safe foods or limited or uncertain ability to acquire acceptable foods in socially acceptable ways.

In 2014, 48 million people (15.4%) were food insecure in the United States. This included 13.1 million children.

Now, that is in fact down from a peak of around 20 million children during the Reagan years. However, it's *still* misleading if used as a demonstration of how the lower classes have benefitted from economic growth, because all of the change has occurred in states that have built robust, well-funded food distribution programs for the poor (free breakfast programs at schools have helped, too). In states like North Dakota, which have opted not to develop these services or cannot afford to, conditions have not improved.

In other words, proximity to wealthy people with an appreciation for social services is the determining factor, not any personal circumstantial benefit derived from national economic growth.

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 Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
PostPosted: Fri October 27, 2017 10:25 am 
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I would add that the things you mentioned are "things". Things break down. They rot. They become obsolete. Without wealth, all you are doing is replacing and maintaining things.


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 Post subject: Re: Does anyone care about the economy?
PostPosted: Tue October 31, 2017 3:05 pm 
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Bi_3 wrote:
I would add that the things you mentioned are "things". Things break down. They rot. They become obsolete. Without wealth, all you are doing is replacing and maintaining things.

I think "things" are probably a better measurement of how well a person is doing than comparing money, even real dollars, over time. So if people who are similarly poor as far as income is concerned have access to/own more/better "things" I think that is a sign of things becoming less bad over time.

I'm not saying the poor have it good or that inequality isn't a problem. However, I do think that some measures that indicate the poor are becoming more poor as a group leave out some important information that can provide context.

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 Post subject: Re: The 45th POTUS - Donald J. Trump
PostPosted: Wed November 01, 2017 5:51 pm 
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Princen's "Shading and Distancing Theory" is worth a read if you have the time. The short version is: The further away one gets from the point of production or consumption, the more likely there are going to be economic losers somewhere in the process.

ftp://131.252.97.79/Transfer/ES_Pubs/ES ... rticle.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: The 45th POTUS - Donald J. Trump
PostPosted: Wed November 01, 2017 6:21 pm 
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Neither of those posts seem like ringing endorsements of globalization. In fact, the opposite.

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 Post subject: Re: The 45th POTUS - Donald J. Trump
PostPosted: Wed November 01, 2017 6:27 pm 
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BurtReynolds wrote:
Neither of those posts seem like ringing endorsements of globalization. In fact, the opposite.

I'm not endorsing it, just accepting it's the reality. What would Bannon have us do? Stop trading with other countries and making all of our widgets domestically? Or continue global trade, but push deals that create ever more deplorable working and environmental conditions wherever our widgets are made?


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 Post subject: Re: The 45th POTUS - Donald J. Trump
PostPosted: Wed November 01, 2017 6:28 pm 
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My point is that it's just incredibly narrow-minded and short-sighted to pursue any sort of economic stance that denies the realities of economic efficiencies. Like, imagine if you had to all of a sudden have your Scurry books printed domestically, with a small-print publisher? How much more would that cost you?


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 Post subject: Re: The 45th POTUS - Donald J. Trump
PostPosted: Wed November 01, 2017 6:29 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: The 45th POTUS - Donald J. Trump
PostPosted: Wed November 01, 2017 6:33 pm 
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tragabigzanda wrote:
BurtReynolds wrote:
Neither of those posts seem like ringing endorsements of globalization. In fact, the opposite.

I'm not endorsing it, just accepting it's the reality. What would Bannon have us do? Stop trading with other countries and making all of our widgets domestically? Or continue global trade, but push deals that create ever more deplorable working and environmental conditions wherever our widgets are made?

Given those two choices: the first one.

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 Post subject: Re: The 45th POTUS - Donald J. Trump
PostPosted: Wed November 01, 2017 6:34 pm 
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McParadigm wrote:
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 Post subject: Re: The 45th POTUS - Donald J. Trump
PostPosted: Wed November 01, 2017 6:35 pm 
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I'd rather we moved to a Star Trek model where we don't need to work but whatever.

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 Post subject: Re: The 45th POTUS - Donald J. Trump
PostPosted: Wed November 01, 2017 6:35 pm 
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BurtReynolds wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
BurtReynolds wrote:
Neither of those posts seem like ringing endorsements of globalization. In fact, the opposite.

I'm not endorsing it, just accepting it's the reality. What would Bannon have us do? Stop trading with other countries and making all of our widgets domestically? Or continue global trade, but push deals that create ever more deplorable working and environmental conditions wherever our widgets are made?

Given those two choices: the first one.

Oh, it'd be great if we could make it happen. But even if we could execute some modern New Deal situation that put every American to work in the manufacturing sector, how long would it take to implement? 20 years?


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 Post subject: Re: The 45th POTUS - Donald J. Trump
PostPosted: Wed November 01, 2017 6:38 pm 
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tragabigzanda wrote:
BurtReynolds wrote:
Neither of those posts seem like ringing endorsements of globalization. In fact, the opposite.

I'm not endorsing it, just accepting it's the reality. What would Bannon have us do? Stop trading with other countries and making all of our widgets domestically? Or continue global trade, but push deals that create ever more deplorable working and environmental conditions wherever our widgets are made?

Before I respond I want to make sure I understand what you're saying. Are you arguing that global trade creates ever more deplorable working and environmental conditions?

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 Post subject: Re: The 45th POTUS - Donald J. Trump
PostPosted: Wed November 01, 2017 6:41 pm 
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4/5 wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
BurtReynolds wrote:
Neither of those posts seem like ringing endorsements of globalization. In fact, the opposite.

I'm not endorsing it, just accepting it's the reality. What would Bannon have us do? Stop trading with other countries and making all of our widgets domestically? Or continue global trade, but push deals that create ever more deplorable working and environmental conditions wherever our widgets are made?

Before I respond I want to make sure I understand what you're saying. Are you arguing that global trade creates ever more deplorable working and environmental conditions?

I'm arguing that it does sometimes, but obviously sometimes the inverse is true.
With aquaculture, we're seeing the US subsist on sub-quality cultured fish from Asia that is produced in unsafe and environmentally toxic working conditions; but then with the auto industry, we've seen improvements in overseas labor and waste standards.


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 Post subject: Re: The 45th POTUS - Donald J. Trump
PostPosted: Wed November 01, 2017 6:43 pm 
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tragabigzanda wrote:
BurtReynolds wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
BurtReynolds wrote:
Neither of those posts seem like ringing endorsements of globalization. In fact, the opposite.

I'm not endorsing it, just accepting it's the reality. What would Bannon have us do? Stop trading with other countries and making all of our widgets domestically? Or continue global trade, but push deals that create ever more deplorable working and environmental conditions wherever our widgets are made?

Given those two choices: the first one.

Oh, it'd be great if we could make it happen. But even if we could execute some modern New Deal situation that put every American to work in the manufacturing sector, how long would it take to implement? 20 years?

Why on earth would it be great to bring back manufacturing jobs to the U.S.? The fact that those jobs are gone is a sign of progress. As a nation we are too skilled and too productive for those jobs at this point and that's a really good thing.

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 Post subject: Re: The 45th POTUS - Donald J. Trump
PostPosted: Wed November 01, 2017 6:45 pm 
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There is an economy thread. The person this thread is about does not have the power to prevent or destroy the globalization of this or other economies. It's a testament to the stupidity of Steve Bannon and associates that they believe otherwise. I almost spelled testament wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: The 45th POTUS - Donald J. Trump
PostPosted: Wed November 01, 2017 6:56 pm 
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4/5 wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
BurtReynolds wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
BurtReynolds wrote:
Neither of those posts seem like ringing endorsements of globalization. In fact, the opposite.

I'm not endorsing it, just accepting it's the reality. What would Bannon have us do? Stop trading with other countries and making all of our widgets domestically? Or continue global trade, but push deals that create ever more deplorable working and environmental conditions wherever our widgets are made?

Given those two choices: the first one.

Oh, it'd be great if we could make it happen. But even if we could execute some modern New Deal situation that put every American to work in the manufacturing sector, how long would it take to implement? 20 years?

Why on earth would it be great to bring back manufacturing jobs to the U.S.? The fact that those jobs are gone is a sign of progress. As a nation we are too skilled and too productive for those jobs at this point and that's a really good thing.

I feel like this is sarcasm.

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 Post subject: Re: The 45th POTUS - Donald J. Trump
PostPosted: Wed November 01, 2017 6:59 pm 
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4/5 wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
BurtReynolds wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
BurtReynolds wrote:
Neither of those posts seem like ringing endorsements of globalization. In fact, the opposite.

I'm not endorsing it, just accepting it's the reality. What would Bannon have us do? Stop trading with other countries and making all of our widgets domestically? Or continue global trade, but push deals that create ever more deplorable working and environmental conditions wherever our widgets are made?

Given those two choices: the first one.

Oh, it'd be great if we could make it happen. But even if we could execute some modern New Deal situation that put every American to work in the manufacturing sector, how long would it take to implement? 20 years?

Why on earth would it be great to bring back manufacturing jobs to the U.S.? The fact that those jobs are gone is a sign of progress. As a nation we are too skilled and too productive for those jobs at this point and that's a really good thing.

As a small business owner pursuing all manner of funding for development of a light manufacturing line in a rural area, I wholeheartedly disagree. There are people less than a hundred feet from where I'm sitting right now who would love a manufacturing job.


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 Post subject: Re: The 45th POTUS - Donald J. Trump
PostPosted: Wed November 01, 2017 7:13 pm 
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tragabigzanda wrote:
4/5 wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
BurtReynolds wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
BurtReynolds wrote:
Neither of those posts seem like ringing endorsements of globalization. In fact, the opposite.

I'm not endorsing it, just accepting it's the reality. What would Bannon have us do? Stop trading with other countries and making all of our widgets domestically? Or continue global trade, but push deals that create ever more deplorable working and environmental conditions wherever our widgets are made?

Given those two choices: the first one.

Oh, it'd be great if we could make it happen. But even if we could execute some modern New Deal situation that put every American to work in the manufacturing sector, how long would it take to implement? 20 years?

Why on earth would it be great to bring back manufacturing jobs to the U.S.? The fact that those jobs are gone is a sign of progress. As a nation we are too skilled and too productive for those jobs at this point and that's a really good thing.

As a small business owner pursuing all manner of funding for development of a light manufacturing line in a rural area, I wholeheartedly disagree. There are people less than a hundred feet from where I'm sitting right now who would love a manufacturing job.

Sure, there are some low-skilled workers who get left behind, but on net we are far better off without those jobs. And there is still A LOT of manufacturing done in the U.S., it just tends to be highly automated with higher-skilled and well-payed workers.

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 Post subject: Re: The 45th POTUS - Donald J. Trump
PostPosted: Wed November 01, 2017 7:22 pm 
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tragabigzanda wrote:
4/5 wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
BurtReynolds wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
BurtReynolds wrote:
Neither of those posts seem like ringing endorsements of globalization. In fact, the opposite.

I'm not endorsing it, just accepting it's the reality. What would Bannon have us do? Stop trading with other countries and making all of our widgets domestically? Or continue global trade, but push deals that create ever more deplorable working and environmental conditions wherever our widgets are made?

Given those two choices: the first one.

Oh, it'd be great if we could make it happen. But even if we could execute some modern New Deal situation that put every American to work in the manufacturing sector, how long would it take to implement? 20 years?

Why on earth would it be great to bring back manufacturing jobs to the U.S.? The fact that those jobs are gone is a sign of progress. As a nation we are too skilled and too productive for those jobs at this point and that's a really good thing.

As a small business owner pursuing all manner of funding for development of a light manufacturing line in a rural area, I wholeheartedly disagree. There are people less than a hundred feet from where I'm sitting right now who would love a manufacturing job.

And if I'm not misunderstanding you, this would seem to suggest that you have a workforce sitting there waiting to get a manufacturing job from you. Presumably, you'll be manufacturing something that you can afford to pay American workers to make and still be competitive. This sounds like a good thing for both sides.

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