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 Post subject: Income Inequality
PostPosted: Sat October 26, 2013 12:39 am 
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 Post subject: Re: The Welfare State
PostPosted: Sat October 26, 2013 12:42 am 
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that's an excellent video - I read an article about it months ago and watched it then. wanted to post it but never did.

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 Post subject: Re: Income Inequality
PostPosted: Sat October 26, 2013 1:12 am 
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I'm splitting this into a new topic because I have a feeling I would have veered the other thread way off topic.

I've never been able to be bothered that much about income inequality. I care about a baseline for people to make sure that they have the basic needs of life taken care of. But beyond that...meh, if you were able to make it bigtime within the system, more power to you.

I would, however, advocate a hefty estate tax, which I think would incidentally be the most effective way to make things evener anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Income Inequality
PostPosted: Sat October 26, 2013 1:21 am 
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I think that part of the problem I have with this kind of wealth inequality is that it lessens the worth of the entire country - I can't look at it on an individual basis of 'more power to the guy' because when so much wealth is distributed among such a small percentage of the country, the rest of the country, as a unified entity, suffer greatly from that - it weakens the country.

the older I get, the more that concerns me.

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 Post subject: Re: Income Inequality
PostPosted: Sat October 26, 2013 1:35 am 
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malice wrote:
I think that part of the problem I have with this kind of wealth inequality is that it lessens the worth of the entire country - I can't look at it on an individual basis of 'more power to the guy' because when so much wealth is distributed among such a small percentage of the country, the rest of the country, as a unified entity, suffer greatly from that - it weakens the country.

the older I get, the more that concerns me.
I know that there will always be people that will always be a hell of a lot wealthier than me, but I've never seen that fact have a negative impact on how I live my life. I also think that holds true for many--perhaps most, certainly not all--people in this nation.


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 Post subject: Re: Income Inequality
PostPosted: Mon October 28, 2013 1:17 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
malice wrote:
I think that part of the problem I have with this kind of wealth inequality is that it lessens the worth of the entire country - I can't look at it on an individual basis of 'more power to the guy' because when so much wealth is distributed among such a small percentage of the country, the rest of the country, as a unified entity, suffer greatly from that - it weakens the country.

the older I get, the more that concerns me.
I know that there will always be people that will always be a hell of a lot wealthier than me, but I've never seen that fact have a negative impact on how I live my life. I also think that holds true for many--perhaps most, certainly not all--people in this nation.




I kinda agree. I have no issues with some people being billionaires, even if it's inherited wealth. What concerns me is when that wealth is used to exploit and oppress other citizens, like we see Wall Street doing now. Large businesses don't even make products anymore, the make financial gains or losses which are used by Wall Street to drive stock prices deltas which are siphoned off into profits that only the wealthiest investors ever see, while the middle class begs for scraps.

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 Post subject: Re: Income Inequality
PostPosted: Mon October 28, 2013 7:28 pm 
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maybe I should wait another 10-15 years and see if anyone has changed their mind about this

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 Post subject: Re: Income Inequality
PostPosted: Mon October 28, 2013 8:09 pm 
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I think too many people erroneously assume that they unfairly make less because others make more.


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 Post subject: Re: Income Inequality
PostPosted: Mon October 28, 2013 8:12 pm 
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I really hope it doesn't take another 10-15 years for people to take this more seriously.

I think that as a general rule, the needs of the nation should outweigh the ability to accumulate mass amounts of wealth. Minimum wage should be no lower than the ceiling for general welfare benefits (not all gov services, but food stamps, welfare checks, medicaid, etc...) - or something like that.

And I resent the notion that liberals hate the rich (for whatever reason). I don't care how much money Bill Gates has. What I question is why we have a system that can simultaneously allow one man to have $72B while allowing a major city to collapse on a debt that is literally 25% that amount. If that was an anomaly and not just an extreme example, then maybe we wouldn't be in such a mess.


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 Post subject: Re: Income Inequality
PostPosted: Mon October 28, 2013 8:18 pm 
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Chris_H_2 wrote:
I think too many people erroneously assume that they unfairly make less because others make more.


I don't believe this. I think that an honest (modest), average salary doesn't cut it anymore, and people are starting to wonder why.


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 Post subject: Re: Income Inequality
PostPosted: Mon October 28, 2013 8:33 pm 
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http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/09/17/856711/ten-inequality-charts-occupy/

Number 6 is the one that really bothers me:

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 Post subject: Re: Income Inequality
PostPosted: Mon October 28, 2013 8:35 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Income Inequality
PostPosted: Mon October 28, 2013 8:41 pm 
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stip wrote:



That doesn't really bother me as it's probably just the result of computers becoming common in most industries. A graph showing the changes in where Fortune 500 profits go ('shareholder' return vs. employee pay and capital investment) would probably piss me off more.

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 Post subject: Re: Income Inequality
PostPosted: Mon October 28, 2013 8:54 pm 
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it's really the same problem. We are spectacularly more productive yet most people's livelihood's have stagnated.

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 Post subject: Re: Income Inequality
PostPosted: Mon October 28, 2013 9:06 pm 
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stip wrote:


Number 7 also. People are never going to get out form under all that debt without a serious increase in earnings. Generational poverty.


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 Post subject: Re: Income Inequality
PostPosted: Mon October 28, 2013 9:53 pm 
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stip wrote:
it's really the same problem. We are spectacularly more productive yet most people's livelihood's have stagnated.


I guess I can see that.

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 Post subject: Re: Income Inequality
PostPosted: Mon October 28, 2013 9:55 pm 
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stip wrote:

Six doesn't bother me as the ones responsible for the productivity gains, computer makers have been compensated for the productivity gains. The productivity gain didn't come from the masses working harder or smarter, it came from automation. In general I think those responsible for productivity gains have been compensated fairly well. Silicon Valley is far from poor.

As much as I may not like it, I think my VP has it right. He always stresses that in order to ensure that we have an ever increasing budget, meaning no layoffs, decent raises and nice bonuses as well as fun projects that we need to make sure we are either generating revenue or driving productivity gains. Seeing as we're an IT group, we are all about driving productivity gains. He reiterates, that line items (expenses) that are just part of doing business have a very tough time getting an increase in their budget and are always first up for a budget cut should things get lean. The last fifty years has seen so much work place change and what skillets are desirable. Far too many people, for a myriad of reasons have accumulated a skillset that would have maybe cut it sixty years ago. Too many people still take on careers that are line items. Even previously solid careers such as being a CPA are becoming pretty stagnant $ wise. So much of what a good accountant can do is now replaceable by software.

I think the amount of work that it takes to make sure you are part of and remain part of 'the haves' is more than most want to do. It's not insurmountable, nor does it require great intellect but it does require constant work for most people. I can't see that changing unfortunately. Other than implementing draconian tax rates which the rich will find ways around, the only solution I can truly see is a starting all over with the tax code. Simplify the shit out of yes. Yes, many lower middle class and the poor will lose deductions but so all the rich. Put in a progressive tax system with a decent income threshold before you pay any taxes. I'd also like to see corporate taxes done away with but fully tax all personal income.

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 Post subject: Re: Income Inequality
PostPosted: Tue October 29, 2013 9:35 am 
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corporate taxes used to be 70% of the nation's income. Now it is 30%. That's flipped with income tax, which used to be 30.

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 Post subject: Re: Income Inequality
PostPosted: Tue October 29, 2013 9:39 am 
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surfndestroy wrote:
stip wrote:

Six doesn't bother me as the ones responsible for the productivity gains, computer makers have been compensated for the productivity gains. The productivity gain didn't come from the masses working harder or smarter, it came from automation. In general I think those responsible for productivity gains have been compensated fairly well. Silicon Valley is far from poor.

As much as I may not like it, I think my VP has it right. He always stresses that in order to ensure that we have an ever increasing budget, meaning no layoffs, decent raises and nice bonuses as well as fun projects that we need to make sure we are either generating revenue or driving productivity gains. Seeing as we're an IT group, we are all about driving productivity gains. He reiterates, that line items (expenses) that are just part of doing business have a very tough time getting an increase in their budget and are always first up for a budget cut should things get lean. The last fifty years has seen so much work place change and what skillets are desirable. Far too many people, for a myriad of reasons have accumulated a skillset that would have maybe cut it sixty years ago. Too many people still take on careers that are line items. Even previously solid careers such as being a CPA are becoming pretty stagnant $ wise. So much of what a good accountant can do is now replaceable by software.

I think the amount of work that it takes to make sure you are part of and remain part of 'the haves' is more than most want to do. It's not insurmountable, nor does it require great intellect but it does require constant work for most people. I can't see that changing unfortunately. Other than implementing draconian tax rates which the rich will find ways around, the only solution I can truly see is a starting all over with the tax code. Simplify the shit out of yes. Yes, many lower middle class and the poor will lose deductions but so all the rich. Put in a progressive tax system with a decent income threshold before you pay any taxes. I'd also like to see corporate taxes done away with but fully tax all personal income.



It certainly takes hard work, but it also takes available jobs and opportunities that are increasingly not there. The problem is not that struggling people in this country are lazy. Almost everyone has to work harder than ever before simply to tread water.

If the political will is there you can keep closing new loopholes that are exploited. Enterprising criminals find ways around all our laws. We still tend to find them useful.


Without truly confiscatory tax rates at the very top, as well as extremely high taxes on financial wealth, there is no way the society can get the revenue it needs to function solely through a progressive income tax.

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 Post subject: Re: Income Inequality
PostPosted: Tue October 29, 2013 2:04 pm 
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stip wrote:
corporate taxes used to be 70% of the nation's income. Now it is 30%. That's flipped with income tax, which used to be 30.
Please tell me why the former is preferable.

Say I have a million dollars to invest, I invest it in a new company with $100,000 profit per year and say a marginal tax rate of 40%. I net $60,000. If I invested that money instead in 10% ownership of a corporation with income of a million dollars, my share of that profit is $100,000. After taxes (corporate and personal) why should my net be anything other than $60,000?

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