The board's server will undergo upgrade maintenance tonight, Nov 5, 2014, beginning approximately around 10 PM ET. Prepare for some possible down time during this process.
FAQ    Search

Board index » Word on the Street » News & Debate




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Internships
PostPosted: Thu October 24, 2013 1:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar
AnalLog
 Profile

Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 2:21 am
Posts: 1434
stip wrote:
Sarah. wrote:
I have no idea whether our system is different to yours. It's a pretty well established fact that over here, internships are only an option for those who have independent finances, usually provided by their parents. And like it or not, that contributes towards class divides.

Volunteering is a completely different thing, often taken up in a field different to that which you are employed in, with much less responsibility, and less commitment. Maybe commitment is the wrong word. I volunteer, and everyone is there because they want to be there, but it's also implicitly understood that actual employment, family and other caring commitments may need to be prioritised.



presumably people who do internships in the UK have chosen to have independent finances. The problem with the poor in the US is that they've idiotically chosen to not be financially independent, which makes it harder for them to do the things that will enable them to become financially independent.

I'm speaking broadly here, obviously, but Americans don't see poverty, privation, etc. as a structural issue. The see it is a matter of choice, usually one laden with moral implications (if you can't afford to take an unpaid internship it is because you made BAD choices prior to this point, and therefore your hardships are totally deserved).

What is the value of the degree being granted if you feel that the financial inability to do an unpaid internship is a barrier to success? If you feel this is such a key component to success why aren't educators pushing to have this made part of the curriculum? What does it say about all the people who graduate and do not care about or let unpaid internships get in the way of their success?

If a three month unpaid internship, where a student foregoes $3k if minimum wage pay is a barrier, then how do you feel about college and university costs? Seems in comparison to the number of unpaid internships that you feel this is the huge problem, Maybe it is time for universities to be made part of the public school system with the according pay.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Internships
PostPosted: Thu October 24, 2013 2:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Site Admin
 Profile

Joined: Wed December 12, 2012 10:33 pm
Posts: 5419
stip wrote:
Quote:
Umm… even if the student was earning minimum wage (about the highest salary he could probably command, unless he possessed some special skills), he would still need to crash on couches. You can’t live in a foreign city for 3 months on low wages. Whether the salary is $0, o maybe $50 a day, you are still going to be broke. One summer I interned with the Department of Defense in Arlington, VA (away from home). I was making, maybe $7/hr. You cannot live in Arlington, or anywhere in northern Virginia at that salary. I did not know anyone, and had no couches to crash on, nor did I have any family members nearby. My employer made no effort to help find a place for me to live. I had to dip into personal savings just to cover the extravagant rents for those 3 months. Yet the experience was well worth the cost, even if I was in the red for the summer.
that says it all right there. You need to have the 'personal savings' and be able to be in the red 'for the summer' to pull this off.
I'm waiting to hear stories of people going into major credit card debt just so they could find a way to compete with the richer in getting an unpaid internship.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Internships
PostPosted: Thu October 24, 2013 3:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar
AnalLog
 Profile

Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 2:21 am
Posts: 1434
Green Habit wrote:
stip wrote:
Quote:
Umm… even if the student was earning minimum wage (about the highest salary he could probably command, unless he possessed some special skills), he would still need to crash on couches. You can’t live in a foreign city for 3 months on low wages. Whether the salary is $0, o maybe $50 a day, you are still going to be broke. One summer I interned with the Department of Defense in Arlington, VA (away from home). I was making, maybe $7/hr. You cannot live in Arlington, or anywhere in northern Virginia at that salary. I did not know anyone, and had no couches to crash on, nor did I have any family members nearby. My employer made no effort to help find a place for me to live. I had to dip into personal savings just to cover the extravagant rents for those 3 months. Yet the experience was well worth the cost, even if I was in the red for the summer.
that says it all right there. You need to have the 'personal savings' and be able to be in the red 'for the summer' to pull this off.
I'm waiting to hear stories of people going into major credit card debt just so they could find a way to compete with the richer in getting an unpaid internship.

So now the $3k in lost minimum wage salary counts as major debt? Especially as compered to any debt racked up to go to university. Why would they put it on credit card? These are supposedly smart people, why would they choose the highest interest form of credit there is?

If it were my kid and he was acting like a 3 unpaid month internship was a barrier to his success I'd rip him a new one. These are not new. Presumably these were there when he started his program. He knew that he thought his success depended on being able to afford this, no different than being able to afford school. I'd tell him that he's had four years to put aside $25 a week to be able to afford this. If he is going to act like three hours of work a week during his university is a barrier to success, there definitely is a barrier and t's called his brain.

Both my nephews have gone to universities that offered paid work experiences. The universities feel this is an important component to the students success so they work with business and provide paid learning opportunities. My nephew made $24 and hour one of his work breaks. Other nephew making $16 an hour after a year and half of university. If the university cares and feels it is an important component of the education and success they make it happen. Maybe the question is why aren't alluniversities doing this if students feel this is an important component of success?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Internships
PostPosted: Thu October 24, 2013 5:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar
The worst
 Profile

Joined: Thu December 13, 2012 6:31 pm
Posts: 30227
surfndestroy wrote:
stip wrote:
Sarah. wrote:
I have no idea whether our system is different to yours. It's a pretty well established fact that over here, internships are only an option for those who have independent finances, usually provided by their parents. And like it or not, that contributes towards class divides.

Volunteering is a completely different thing, often taken up in a field different to that which you are employed in, with much less responsibility, and less commitment. Maybe commitment is the wrong word. I volunteer, and everyone is there because they want to be there, but it's also implicitly understood that actual employment, family and other caring commitments may need to be prioritised.



presumably people who do internships in the UK have chosen to have independent finances. The problem with the poor in the US is that they've idiotically chosen to not be financially independent, which makes it harder for them to do the things that will enable them to become financially independent.

I'm speaking broadly here, obviously, but Americans don't see poverty, privation, etc. as a structural issue. The see it is a matter of choice, usually one laden with moral implications (if you can't afford to take an unpaid internship it is because you made BAD choices prior to this point, and therefore your hardships are totally deserved).

What is the value of the degree being granted if you feel that the financial inability to do an unpaid internship is a barrier to success? If you feel this is such a key component to success why aren't educators pushing to have this made part of the curriculum? What does it say about all the people who graduate and do not care about or let unpaid internships get in the way of their success?

If a three month unpaid internship, where a student foregoes $3k if minimum wage pay is a barrier, then how do you feel about college and university costs? Seems in comparison to the number of unpaid internships that you feel this is the huge problem, Maybe it is time for universities to be made part of the public school system with the according pay.



Many internships are hardly essential to actually do the job (I dare say most, but this is just speculation), but doing one becomes necessary if people decide that this is a necessary requirement. That's not a decision colleges make.

Again, the issue here is not interns with limited hours done during a semester for credit.


If a three month unpaid internship, where a student foregoes $3k if minimum wage pay is a barrier, then how do you feel about college and university costs? Seems in comparison to the number of unpaid internships that you feel this is the huge problem, Maybe it is time for universities to be made part of the public school system with the according pay.


I would support ending all public subsidies for private college tuition in exchange for getting students free or truly low cost education at public universities. And I teach at a private college. But this is really just a failed gotcha moment that doesn't actually address the internship problem. If your broader point/question is 'do I support larger measures to alleviate the consequences of inequality and the perpetuation of class barriers?' then chances are pretty high I almost always willl

_________________
So many tournaments, so little time


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Internships
PostPosted: Thu October 24, 2013 6:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar
AnalLog
 Profile

Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 2:21 am
Posts: 1434
Are you willing for all post secondary education to fall under the public school system and have it cost the same as high school? That is removing the class barriers you lwant to see removed. Your mix of private (with no public subsidy) and public universities still provides class barriers for those who cannot afford your private school. That takes away a valuable post secondary option from them, just as an unpaid internship takes away an option from them.

Right now internships offer the exact thing you think would be an improvement to post secondary education.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Internships
PostPosted: Thu October 24, 2013 7:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar
The worst
 Profile

Joined: Thu December 13, 2012 6:31 pm
Posts: 30227
surfndestroy wrote:
Are you willing for all post secondary education to fall under the public school system and have it cost the same as high school? That is removing the class barriers you lwant to see removed. Your mix of private (with no public subsidy) and public universities still provides class barriers for those who cannot afford your private school. That takes away a valuable post secondary option from them, just as an unpaid internship takes away an option from them.

Right now internships offer the exact thing you think would be an improvement to post secondary education.



yes, I think on balance people would be better off with a free public education instead of allowing people the opportunity to go into a fair amount of debt for a public education and a fuck ton of debt for a private one. Especially because the quality of your education is not necessarily better at a private school than a public one.


I don't understand your point in italics.

_________________
So many tournaments, so little time


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Internships
PostPosted: Thu October 24, 2013 8:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar
AnalLog
 Profile

Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 2:21 am
Posts: 1434
stip wrote:
surfndestroy wrote:
Are you willing for all post secondary education to fall under the public school system and have it cost the same as high school? That is removing the class barriers you lwant to see removed. Your mix of private (with no public subsidy) and public universities still provides class barriers for those who cannot afford your private school. That takes away a valuable post secondary option from them, just as an unpaid internship takes away an option from them.

Right now internships offer the exact thing you think would be an improvement to post secondary education.



yes, I think on balance people would be better off with a free public education instead of allowing people the opportunity to go into a fair amount of debt for a public education and a fuck ton of debt for a private one. Especially because the quality of your education is not necessarily better at a private school than a public one.


I don't understand your point in italics.

Currently there are paid internships (no barrier) and unpaid internships (barrier for some) and the majority of people not doing an internship (no barrier). Person doing the internship gets something out of it that they find of value over and beyond any payment.

Universities and colleges only offer barriers in that there's a cost to attend. Even worse, private schools are publically subsidized making state university more expensive than it should be. Your proposed improvement of moving the subsidy to state schools to lower and possibly eliminate the cost is exactly where interhships currently are. Some internships offer a possible barrier and some don't. The private university is going to charge (barrier for some), state university at lower or no charge is exactly what interships offer, a mix of possible barrier options and no barrier options.

Internships offer the exact model you think would be an improvement on post secondary education. Given the number of people attending post secondary where there is a cost barrier to pretty much every prospective student versus the much smaller number of unpaid internships (with paid internships still available), which is the huge problem. Which is the real class barrier you want to fight? WHat business model do you profit from? Is that possibly clouding your judgement regarding what is a huge problem?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Internships
PostPosted: Thu October 24, 2013 8:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar
The worst
 Profile

Joined: Thu December 13, 2012 6:31 pm
Posts: 30227
surfndestroy wrote:
stip wrote:
surfndestroy wrote:
Are you willing for all post secondary education to fall under the public school system and have it cost the same as high school? That is removing the class barriers you lwant to see removed. Your mix of private (with no public subsidy) and public universities still provides class barriers for those who cannot afford your private school. That takes away a valuable post secondary option from them, just as an unpaid internship takes away an option from them.

Right now internships offer the exact thing you think would be an improvement to post secondary education.



yes, I think on balance people would be better off with a free public education instead of allowing people the opportunity to go into a fair amount of debt for a public education and a fuck ton of debt for a private one. Especially because the quality of your education is not necessarily better at a private school than a public one.


I don't understand your point in italics.

Currently there are paid internships (no barrier) and unpaid internships (barrier for some) and the majority of people not doing an internship (no barrier). Person doing the internship gets something out of it that they find of value over and beyond any payment.

Universities and colleges only offer barriers in that there's a cost to attend. Even worse, private schools are publically subsidized making state university more expensive than it should be. Your proposed improvement of moving the subsidy to state schools to lower and possibly eliminate the cost is exactly where interhships currently are. Some internships offer a possible barrier and some don't. The private university is going to charge (barrier for some), state university at lower or no charge is exactly what interships offer, a mix of possible barrier options and no barrier options.

Internships offer the exact model you think would be an improvement on post secondary education. Given the number of people attending post secondary where there is a cost barrier to pretty much every prospective student versus the much smaller number of unpaid internships (with paid internships still available), which is the huge problem. Which is the real class barrier you want to fight? WHat business model do you profit from? Is that possibly clouding your judgement regarding what is a huge problem?


people who don't do an internship are put at a disadvantage if internships are increasingly a pre-req for employment in worthwhile fields.

Quote:
Person doing the internship gets something out of it that they find of value over and beyond any payment.


Other than your wedding and birth of your child there is no experience in life more spiritually fulfilling than an internship. that is true. Maybe winning an argument on the internet.


I work for a private college. The politics I am advocating would harm me quite a bit. it would probably kill my school. I can separate my policy and moral positions from my personal self interest.

I'm not sure how this conversation got caught up in this higher education funding discussion, or what the analogy is here exactly. The rest of your internship/college analogy makes no sense, or if it does someone else is going to need to explain it to me. Is your argument that because there are other, even greater, reproducers of class barriers I should stop worrying about internships?

_________________
So many tournaments, so little time


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Internships
PostPosted: Sat October 26, 2013 3:46 am 
Offline
Fake NYC Setlist Relayer
 Profile

Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 2:11 pm
Posts: 7703
Internships are very important at newspapers. Young journalists get a taste of what working for a newspaper is all about. And newspapers get to see if that person will ever be able to rise above obit clerk status. Our interns rarely went over 20 hours and about 50% of our new hires were interns with us at some point.

Journalism schools like to fill students' heads with thoughts of narrative leads and in-depth 60-inch investigative stories. Most reporters get to write 3, maybe 4, of those kinds of stories a year. Many people coming out of college are good writers, but aren't good reporters. Internships are a good way for them to see that journalism isn't about writing the big story that's gonna win you a Pulitzer, it's about reporting on that night's school board or city council meeting.

At the newspapers I worked at, internships were mutually beneficial.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Internships
PostPosted: Sat October 26, 2013 9:33 am 
Offline
User avatar
The worst
 Profile

Joined: Thu December 13, 2012 6:31 pm
Posts: 30227
were they paid? I think this thread is mostly about the social affects of unpaid internships, not questioning their utility

_________________
So many tournaments, so little time


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Internships
PostPosted: Sat October 26, 2013 2:13 pm 
Offline
Fake NYC Setlist Relayer
 Profile

Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 2:11 pm
Posts: 7703
stip wrote:
were they paid? I think this thread is mostly about the social affects of unpaid internships, not questioning their utility

No.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Internships
PostPosted: Sat October 26, 2013 3:42 pm 
Offline
User avatar
The worst
 Profile

Joined: Thu December 13, 2012 6:31 pm
Posts: 30227
so then the issue becomes can someone afford to give up 20 hours a week of work in order to get what might very well be an incredibly useful per-employment experience, and quite possibly a necessary pre-req for employment.

_________________
So many tournaments, so little time


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Internships
PostPosted: Sat October 26, 2013 6:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar
The Master
 Profile

Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 2:04 pm
Posts: 47815
Location: Sector 7-G
stip wrote:
so then the issue becomes can someone afford to give up 20 hours a week of work in order to get what might very well be an incredibly useful per-employment experience, and quite possibly a necessary pre-req for employment.

Which is why it makes sense to tie them to college course-work and not have them just existing as free labor outside of that realm.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Internships
PostPosted: Sat October 26, 2013 7:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar
The worst
 Profile

Joined: Thu December 13, 2012 6:31 pm
Posts: 30227
It's still a problem even if you tie to college course work, since your average class is not expected to consume 20 hours of schoolwork a week.

_________________
So many tournaments, so little time


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Internships
PostPosted: Mon November 18, 2013 1:06 am 
Offline
User avatar
AnalLog
 Profile

Joined: Wed January 16, 2013 10:46 pm
Posts: 1600
Location: Wrigleyville
stip wrote:
that's a huge problem that helps reproduce class barriers in society.


Although in their case their funding may be so tight that this was actually necessary for survival.

Still...


Why is truthout allowed to practice capitalistic tendencies but not other organizations?

Btw, this had nothing to do with finances... this was purely political but they won't admit to that. So lets just concentrate on the economic/financial part...

You post:
http://truth-out.org/news/item/20015-ca ... employment
Quote:
when capitalists decide to reduce employment because that is the most profitable decision for their individual.... The answer we see most often is that individual capitalists choose which individual employees they will fire.


Why is truthout allowed to practice capitalistic practices, but you bemoan others?

Quote:
An alternative option would manage unemployment by reducing everyone's work week by 7.5 per cent, or roughly 3 hours out of a week's 40 hours. Every worker would then have 3 hours of extra leisure for which no pay would be received. Instead, the saved money would be used to hire the 7.5 percent of workers who no longer need to be fired. Their work would substitute for the 3 hours lost from every other worker's week. In this way, unemployment would be shared by everyone and not imposed on a minority selected by capitalists.


If you truly believe this in the article you posted, Stip, why are you now saying " this was actually necessary for survival."?????? Why would they fire many many people when they simply could have reduced hours?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Internships
PostPosted: Mon November 18, 2013 1:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar
The worst
 Profile

Joined: Thu December 13, 2012 6:31 pm
Posts: 30227
Fuck You Jobu wrote:
stip wrote:
that's a huge problem that helps reproduce class barriers in society.


Although in their case their funding may be so tight that this was actually necessary for survival.

Still...


Why is truthout allowed to practice capitalistic tendencies but not other organizations?

Btw, this had nothing to do with finances... this was purely political but they won't admit to that. So lets just concentrate on the economic/financial part...



Well if this was purely political (do you know more about this story?) then it is certainly going to be a lot harder to defend. Hypocrisy from the management of that organization does not negate the point. It just means that they are hypocrites on this issue. Thomas Jefferson keeping slaves does not negate his claim that all men are created equal

Fuck You Jobu wrote:
You post:
http://truth-out.org/news/item/20015-ca ... employment
Quote:
when capitalists decide to reduce employment because that is the most profitable decision for their individual.... The answer we see most often is that individual capitalists choose which individual employees they will fire.


Why is truthout allowed to practice capitalistic practices, but you bemoan others?



Quote:
An alternative option would manage unemployment by reducing everyone's work week by 7.5 per cent, or roughly 3 hours out of a week's 40 hours. Every worker would then have 3 hours of extra leisure for which no pay would be received. Instead, the saved money would be used to hire the 7.5 percent of workers who no longer need to be fired. Their work would substitute for the 3 hours lost from every other worker's week. In this way, unemployment would be shared by everyone and not imposed on a minority selected by capitalists.


If you truly believe this in the article you posted, Stip, why are you now saying " this was actually necessary for survival."?????? Why would they fire many many people when they simply could have reduced hours?

[/quote]

Is truthout run by its employees or is their a management team making decisions? If it is a management team it may have been the right decision from the standpoint of what is good for the stakeholders in management. It was probably a shitty choice from the perspective of the workers they were employing. I don't know much about truthout's leadership or business model. All I know is that reader supported news split off from them and I get too many fundraiser e-mails from both groups.

I am not defending what truthout did. All i said was that when an organization is making decisions that will determine whether or not it can keep its doors open, as opposed to how it can increase its profits, I (and most people, I would think) accept that the survival imperative would trump other considerations, and I am willing to allow for more leeway in those circumstances. If a reduction in hours to the point where employment was still viable for the people who worked there, and it was a sufficient savings to save the organization, I would have supported that decision.

I feel like you are trying to nail me for a position I haven't really taken here. I don't know any of these details. It's entirely possible everything truthout did was garbage (I recall there being a lot of bad blood at the time of the truthout/RSN split, but I didn't really care about it and so I didn't follow it)

_________________
So many tournaments, so little time


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Internships
PostPosted: Tue December 03, 2013 7:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar
The worst
 Profile

Joined: Thu December 13, 2012 6:31 pm
Posts: 30227
http://www.vice.com/read/the-exploited- ... eral-media


here we go--the article we were all waiting for!

_________________
So many tournaments, so little time


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Internships
PostPosted: Wed December 04, 2013 3:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Site Admin
 Profile

Joined: Wed December 12, 2012 10:33 pm
Posts: 5419
stip wrote:
http://www.vice.com/read/the-exploited-laborers-of-the-liberal-media

here we go--the article we were all waiting for!
Excellent article. :thumbsup:


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Internships
PostPosted: Wed December 04, 2013 6:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar
AnalLog
 Profile

Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 2:21 am
Posts: 1434
Unpaid Internships Cheaper Than School

http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2013/12/unpaid_internships_banning_them_will_only_build_a_bigger_wall_between_school.html


Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

Board index » Word on the Street » News & Debate


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
It is currently Tue February 20, 2018 3:53 am