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 Post subject: Re: General Education Topik
PostPosted: Tue March 21, 2023 6:44 pm 
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McParadigm wrote:


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Seems like all those slight changes in the status-quo over the years are adding up to a big problem.

I don’t know what changes to the status quo you are referring to that caused a teacher shortage. I know that in 1998 when people would ask what I was going to school to become and I would say “teacher,” the most common first reaction was “well you shouldn’t have trouble finding work, with the coming shortage.” The combination of workforce aging and not enough new people coming in was a national news conversation back then…a decade before a 30% reduction in profession intake began. You may recall that the easing of teacher licensing in order to address the shortage was a central component of George W Bush’s education policy, his first year in office.


Common Core and NCLB are two big ones moving the job from educating to testing, but the shift to politicized curriculum and teaching as social justice advocacy have also been huge in altering the perception of what public school teachers do and alienating a substantial amount of people from the profession, particularly in places like rural red states. SEL and Restorative Justice in place of punishment have made schools violent and dangerous for staff. The administrative bloat in most systems is also sapping resources that should be going to teachers and classrooms.

How damage has Randi Weingarten alone done to the common perception of teachers and teaching?


McParadigm wrote:

Quote:
So how does the 4 day week, particularly when you are still bringing the kids to the building and someone is still being paid to supervise them and teachers are still working, address this?

I’m going to skip past the question of “How would decreasing stress, eliminating staff shortage-sourced overwork, and increasing the amount of in-office time teachers have to grade papers and plan lessons help us retain more teachers,” and instead, reemphasize the logistical reality that a shortage factually is. If you don’t currently have enough people to fully staff a five day school week and you are also facing drastic recruiting AND retention problems, there isn’t a world where you just get to keep going as is. Either those problems are addressed, or you have to start looking at reductions of services.

Remember last year when everyone was talking about a 10% drop in police applicants? Talking about how if it didn’t reverse, police services would necessarily have to be reduced? That was a 10% drop. Ohio is facing a 50% decline in applicants. If there’s an ideological model that is tearing apart these systems, it is the rejection of taxation policies that would allow us to pay cops and teachers what they’re worth.



The evidence does not point to the 4 day week improving teacher retention:


https://www.edweek.org/leadership/what- ... ek/2023/02


Quote:
Impact on students and teachers

The researchers found a statistically significant decline in students’ performance on math and English standardized tests in the years following the transition to a four-day week.

That decrease is likely attributable to the schedule switch, the report says, because there weren’t notable changes in student demographics, and other nearby districts didn’t experience comparable drops.

It’s not clear if any subgroups of students performed better academically after the switch, Perrone said, because researchers only had access to aggregate grade-level data.

The change also didn’t help the district keep teachers in their jobs, even though some districts with four-day weeks have pointed to the schedule as a perk.

The report estimates that switching to a four-day school week decreased the probability that teachers would return the next year by 3 percentage points.

And the impact was greater on mid-career teachers—those with five to 15 years of experience—who were 5 percentage points less likely to return to the district.



I agree that it's a death spiral, but it seems like less classroom time makes it worse and you'll end with babysitters not teachers.

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 Post subject: Re: General Education Topik
PostPosted: Tue March 21, 2023 9:08 pm 
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Common Core and NCLB are two big ones moving the job from educating to testing…

Ok.

Quote:
the shift to politicized curriculum and teaching as social justice advocacy have also been huge in altering the perception of what public school teachers do and alienating a substantial amount of people from the profession

We all let personal bias supplant evidence in our decision-making from time to time. It just happens. The brain naturally rewards itself for embracing narratives that reaffirm already-held beliefs, because the brain likes certainty.

So I am asking you to consider this statement, because I can’t think of a clearer example of personal bias supplanting evidence to inform an opinion. There is a thing that you don't like (social justice in education), and separately from that there is a bad thing that's happening (the disparity between number of teachers and basic staffing needs has reached critical mass). And it's so tempting to build that self-affirming narrative....to ascribe the thing you don't like to the bad thing that's happening.

But the teacher shortage is systemic, and decades in the making, and it simply is not in any way caused by social justice content. Whether social justice components in education are good or bad, they simply do not factor into this issue in any significant way.

Teacher licensing programs began waving their hands about intake reductions and insufficiencies in the late 80’s, which is why by 2000 the President was proposing ways the federal government could help prevent a looming teacher shortage (here’s research from 1987 already looking into the matter and concluding that salary adjustments would help). We've been watching this coming, and talking quite a lot about it, for a third of a century.

52% of teachers who quit in the first 10 years cite pay as either the primary or the secondary reason. 43% cite stress and burnout. These responses have been consistent for as long as you have been alive.

The district in your original post is reducing the school week not because it saves money, and not because it draws more new teachers in, but because if they already don't have enough teachers to find subs or staff all positions.....then next year it's going to be even worse. People will continue to retire or leave, and no one is coming to replace them. There will be no pressure-releasing influx of talent. The community isn't inclined to save the day, and there is no longer a pool of talent to draw from. You've gotta find something to relieve the imbalance yourself. You're on your own kid. Always have been.

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 Post subject: Re: General Education Topik
PostPosted: Tue March 21, 2023 9:10 pm 
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Pay your teachers better. Pay your cops better.

And only after that fails to solve the problem do I care to hear your other theories.

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 Post subject: Re: General Education Topik
PostPosted: Wed March 22, 2023 12:35 am 
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McParadigm wrote:
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Common Core and NCLB are two big ones moving the job from educating to testing…

Ok.

Quote:
the shift to politicized curriculum and teaching as social justice advocacy have also been huge in altering the perception of what public school teachers do and alienating a substantial amount of people from the profession

We all let personal bias supplant evidence in our decision-making from time to time. It just happens. The brain naturally rewards itself for embracing narratives that reaffirm already-held beliefs, because the brain likes certainty.

So I am asking you to consider this statement, because I can’t think of a clearer example of personal bias supplanting evidence to inform an opinion. There is a thing that you don't like (social justice in education), and separately from that there is a bad thing that's happening (the disparity between number of teachers and basic staffing needs has reached critical mass). And it's so tempting to build that self-affirming narrative....to ascribe the thing you don't like to the bad thing that's happening.

But the teacher shortage is systemic, and decades in the making, and it simply is not in any way caused by social justice content. Whether social justice components in education are good or bad, they simply do not factor into this issue in any significant way.

Teacher licensing programs began waving their hands about intake reductions and insufficiencies in the late 80’s, which is why by 2000 the President was proposing ways the federal government could help prevent a looming teacher shortage (here’s research from 1987 already looking into the matter and concluding that salary adjustments would help). We've been watching this coming, and talking quite a lot about it, for a third of a century.

52% of teachers who quit in the first 10 years cite pay as either the primary or the secondary reason. 43% cite stress and burnout. These responses have been consistent for as long as you have been alive.

The district in your original post is reducing the school week not because it saves money, and not because it draws more new teachers in, but because if they already don't have enough teachers to find subs or staff all positions.....then next year it's going to be even worse. People will continue to retire or leave, and no one is coming to replace them. There will be no pressure-releasing influx of talent. The community isn't inclined to save the day, and there is no longer a pool of talent to draw from. You've gotta find something to relieve the imbalance yourself. You're on your own kid. Always have been.



Interestingly enough I was thinking the same about your perspective. That a strident unwillingness to consider the impacts that the culture wars have had on teachers was a sign that we might have strayed into forbidden thoughts about who might bear some responsibility for the situation, so you built a self-affirming narrative to avoid considering this thing you don't like. But public schools have been demonized as indoctrination centers on Fox and other red team media for two decades now. How can you deny that them doing that has had a major impact on people's desires to become public school teachers and treat public school teachers with respect or vote for tax increases to support them? No, it didn't cause the initial start of the issue in the 80s, but it's clearly a big-time contributor to it for at least the last 15 years and if half the country is uninterested in being a teacher or doesn't trust public schools for ideological reasons, taking the starting salary from $40k to $60k is not going to get the numbers where they need to be.

Probably should break these out as well:

This is actually a lot of degrees:
Image

Where are these degree holders going?:
Image

Hmmm... it kinda looks like teachers are getting advanced degrees and moving into admin jobs.

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 Post subject: Re: General Education Topik
PostPosted: Wed March 22, 2023 2:12 am 
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That last graph's great. My kid's district doesn't have enough teachers or bus drivers, but they have 45 assistant directors.

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 Post subject: Re: General Education Topik
PostPosted: Wed March 22, 2023 2:14 am 
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Of course that also assumes schools were properly staffed in 1970, and they definitely weren't.

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 Post subject: Re: General Education Topik
PostPosted: Wed March 22, 2023 2:53 am 
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I do laugh a little when bi points out that the job moved "from educating to testing" and then uses test scores as a means to determine if a policy works or not. Sort of seems like you could skew the outcomes if you change the test, no?

I'm very appreciative of mcp's ability to explain this so succinctly.


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 Post subject: Re: General Education Topik
PostPosted: Wed March 22, 2023 3:37 am 
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Bi_3 wrote:
This is actually a lot of degrees:
Image

This is a perfect reference point. On average, around 270,000 teachers leave the profession every year. In addition to that, an average of 10,000 new positions are created in response to population change.

So year after year after year of your life marked by near-300,000 losses, and met with sub-200,000 new applicants.

And yes, you’re right that nearly all of those masters degrees are not only admin degrees, but useless. But they aren’t teachers moving into admin positions, they are frontliners pursuing a fantasy of getting an admin position there’s too much competition for them to get. I’m on record as far back as the old board as saying teachers should see no pay benefit for a masters if it is an admin degree, because an admin degree is a degree that targets a different job.

Quote:
No, it didn't cause the initial start of the issue in the 80s, but it's clearly a big-time contributor to it for at least the last 15 years


So a problem that was ongoing for decades is suddenly exacerbated by a significant new direct cause, but that new cause….doesn't produce a demonstrable negative change? Things were grim before, then it happened, and then things just.,..continued to be the same level of bad? I don’t understand what you’re saying here. We need to prioritize fixing a cause that didn’t produce an observable change in a pre-existing problem, over the solutions that the people doing the actual leaving have been pointing to for 30 years?

Can you just flatly tell me that you think social justice is a hiring deterrent more impactful than salary, so I can start from there when trying to understand what your point is? That level of clarity would help, because unless you think it is a more impactful deterrent, I don’t understand why it is the first or even second one you think of.

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 Post subject: Re: General Education Topik
PostPosted: Wed March 22, 2023 11:07 am 
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McParadigm wrote:
Bi_3 wrote:
This is actually a lot of degrees:
Image

This is a perfect reference point. On average, around 270,000 teachers leave the profession every year. In addition to that, an average of 10,000 new positions are created in response to population change.

So year after year after year of your life marked by near-300,000 losses, and met with sub-200,000 new applicants.

And yes, you’re right that nearly all of those masters degrees are not only admin degrees, but useless. But they aren’t teachers moving into admin positions, they are frontliners pursuing a fantasy of getting an admin position there’s too much competition for them to get. I’m on record as far back as the old board as saying teachers should see no pay benefit for a masters if it is an admin degree, because an admin degree is a degree that targets a different job.

Quote:
No, it didn't cause the initial start of the issue in the 80s, but it's clearly a big-time contributor to it for at least the last 15 years


So a problem that was ongoing for decades is suddenly exacerbated by a significant new direct cause, but that new cause….doesn't produce a demonstrable negative change? Things were grim before, then it happened, and then things just.,..continued to be the same level of bad? I don’t understand what you’re saying here. We need to prioritize fixing a cause that didn’t produce an observable change in a pre-existing problem, over the solutions that the people doing the actual leaving have been pointing to for 30 years?

Can you just flatly tell me that you think social justice is a hiring deterrent more impactful than salary, so I can start from there when trying to understand what your point is? That level of clarity would help, because unless you think it is a more impactful deterrent, I don’t understand why it is the first or even second one you think of.

Unpack the bold part please. US population change averages a tepid 1% at best since 1980, and the majority of that is from in-migration (e.g., not all student age).


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 Post subject: Re: General Education Topik
PostPosted: Wed March 22, 2023 11:09 am 
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elliseamos wrote:
I do laugh a little when bi points out that the job moved "from educating to testing" and then uses test scores as a means to determine if a policy works or not. Sort of seems like you could skew the outcomes if you change the test, no?


It's tricky, but how else would you evaluate the effects of policy changes on student learning if not using basic fluency in reading and math? We aren't talking SAT/PISA/whatever. Just grade level competency.


McP wrote:
And yes, you’re right that nearly all of those masters degrees are not only admin degrees, but useless. But they aren’t teachers moving into admin positions, they are frontliners pursuing a fantasy of getting an admin position there’s too much competition for them to get. I’m on record as far back as the old board as saying teachers should see no pay benefit for a masters if it is an admin degree, because an admin degree is a degree that targets a different job.


Let's say there aren't a significant number teachers leaving to go after those jobs and/or thousands of people who otherwise would have been in the classroom (I can't prove it either way, so I'll trust you on that), but surely the effect those jobs have on teachers... the constant shift in policy and balancing competing priorities and lack of autonomy and the shifting of funds to support admins... has a negative effect on teacher retention.



McP wrote:
So a problem that was ongoing for decades is suddenly exacerbated by a significant new direct cause, but that new cause….doesn't produce a demonstrable negative change? Things were grim before, then it happened, and then things just.,..continued to be the same level of bad? I don’t understand what you’re saying here. We need to prioritize fixing a cause that didn’t produce an observable change in a pre-existing problem, over the solutions that the people doing the actual leaving have been pointing to for 30 years?

Can you just flatly tell me that you think social justice is a hiring deterrent more impactful than salary, so I can start from there when trying to understand what your point is? That level of clarity would help, because unless you think it is a more impactful deterrent, I don’t understand why it is the first or even second one you think of.


The overall situation is not the same level of bad, the population is significantly higher so it's worse, and I did not say it's more impactful than salary, because at some salary point folks will do any job (e.g. oil rig workers). But I can google and read expert opinion on the topic:

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 ... education/

Quote:
Experts have raised several possibilities for why fewer people are expressing interest in the profession, including high levels of stress and burnout, low wages that have remained stagnant, and concern about the political and ideological arguments surrounding classroom curriculums.




Back to the original topic, this graph is very suspicious:

Image

The US population went up by 80M and the number of folks attending college went up by ~40% over the same period, but the number of degrees stays flat. I'd be interested in hearing your take on why because it looks like someone is gatekeeping ed degrees.

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Last edited by Bi_3 on Wed March 22, 2023 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: General Education Topik
PostPosted: Wed March 22, 2023 11:28 am 
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At our local university, both female enrollment and completion are rising, while males are still enrolling, but then dropping out.


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 Post subject: Re: General Education Topik
PostPosted: Wed March 22, 2023 11:35 am 
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tragabigzanda wrote:
At our local university, both female enrollment and completion are rising, while males are still enrolling, but then dropping out.



Something I hadn't considered... perhaps improved equality in the job market (women have better opportunities) is also hurting teacher supply given that historically it has been a female dominated profession. Maybe it even goes back to abortion rights. Hmmm..... so much to think about when I don't actually understand any of it!

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 Post subject: Re: General Education Topik
PostPosted: Wed March 22, 2023 12:04 pm 
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This might only be true in some states, but perhaps there are more states that allow alternative degree paths into education that don't involve an education degree. I teach in a high school and I can't think of anybody there who has a bachelor's in education. In Florida, to be a 6-12 teacher you just need a relevant degree in the subject area and then pass four exams to cover the education component and you're good to go.

Master's in education, however, are a dime a dozen.

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 Post subject: Re: General Education Topik
PostPosted: Wed March 22, 2023 3:41 pm 
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Some places require masters degrees


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 Post subject: Re: General Education Topik
PostPosted: Wed March 22, 2023 6:02 pm 
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elliseamos wrote:
Some places require masters degrees

To teach k-12?

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 Post subject: Re: General Education Topik
PostPosted: Wed March 22, 2023 10:09 pm 
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4/5 wrote:
elliseamos wrote:
Some places require masters degrees

To teach k-12?

Sorry for the lazy, too short response... not to "teach" but some positions listed as "teacher" because they're part of the teacher salary pay-scale & contract structure are master-level required job listings. Could skew the data on Bi's chart.


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 Post subject: Re: General Education Topik
PostPosted: Wed March 22, 2023 10:10 pm 
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I'd have to imagine the biggest deterent is students seeing how miserable their teachers are and thinking "not going to do that."

And most teachers will tell their own children not to do it.


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 Post subject: Re: General Education Topik
PostPosted: Thu March 23, 2023 4:04 pm 
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elliseamos wrote:
4/5 wrote:
elliseamos wrote:
Some places require masters degrees

To teach k-12?

Sorry for the lazy, too short response... not to "teach" but some positions listed as "teacher" because they're part of the teacher salary pay-scale & contract structure are master-level required job listings. Could skew the data on Bi's chart.



I'm actually struggling to get a solid understanding of the situation. Like, I believe McP that it's a long standing issue that is getting worse and salary is the fastest way to start to address it... but I wonder if the time for 'just pay them more' has passed. The pandemic permanently altered the whole conversation and I don't think the old explanations are enough now.

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 Post subject: Re: General Education Topik
PostPosted: Thu March 23, 2023 5:57 pm 
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Yeah, no.

They were underpaid before, they are underpaid now.

People don't want to do the job for the low salaries and now understand that they'll be asked to do more (for less) should another pandemic arrive.


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 Post subject: Re: General Education Topik
PostPosted: Thu March 23, 2023 6:51 pm 
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elliseamos wrote:
Yeah, no.

They were underpaid before, they are underpaid now.

People don't want to do the job for the low salaries and now understand that they'll be asked to do more (for less) should another pandemic arrive.


The unions worked to keep the schools closed against the wishes of the rank and file?


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