Transgender Rights

[Mickey]

Very funny article to post, though, because if you read it you'll notice that Thomas was in-line with current NCAA guidelines, which have since been updated and would create a much more arduous transitioning process for athletes, such that the case of Lia Thomas (one year off HRT) will never happen again.

[Bi_3]

Very funny article to post, though, because if you read it you'll notice that Thomas was in-line with current NCAA guidelines, which have since been updated and would create a much more arduous transitioning process for athletes, such that the case of Lia Thomas (one year off HRT) will never happen again.

I posted that because I agree it was perfectly fair for her to compete.

Looking back in time: http://forums.theskyiscrape.com/viewtopic.php?p=1769745#p1769745

[Mickey]

Oh I don't do that.

[Rob]

“Don’t believe what you see with your own eyes” is where the Trump/gop is. I feel like this is an example of the same on the left. I get that the way it’s portrayed on right wing media isn’t reality, but every once in a while, we see a story where a later transitioning person (male to female) breaks a record.

I’m not even arguing that there can’t be a good reason, I’m simply saying “hey, it’s fine, no one cares about Ivy League swimming” isn’t good enough (if you were right, I wouldn’t know who Lia Thomas is).

It’s such a minority of the population and needs protection, I get that and am on board. I’m not sure this avenue will do much but rile up the public, and I’m not sure that works out in their favor. I don’t have the answer, and I’m not sure many do. That’s why it matters that it’s an ok discussion. No?

[Mickey]

Where have I said you can't discuss trans people in sports? We're discussing it right now. I think it's a mug's game, as I've said before, but you're welcome to play that game, I guess. You simply shouldn't discuss it while repeating poorly researched right-wing talking points, like "Lia Thomas dominated the competition." It's not true! She didn't do that! She won three events at the Ivy League Championships and one at the NCAA Championship.

Here's a fun factlet from her Wikipedia page:

On the men's swim team in 2018–2019, Thomas finished second in the men’s 500, 1,000, and 1,650-yard freestyle at the Ivy League championships as a sophomore in 2019. During the 2018–2019 season, Thomas recorded the top university men's team times in the 500 free, 1000 free, and 1650 free.

This is why the Ivy League Championships don't matter--because they're fucking little league. Thomas almost certainly would have been the men's champion in at least one of her events, had she not transitioned. So her winning three races there, in an athletic conference where there is no money on the table and no future in the sport, while following the rules of NCAA Swimming, is utterly meaningless--unless, of course, you're a right-wing goon looking to stir up anti-trans sentiment, or you're someone who trusted what they "see with their own eyes" when they read the right-wing talking points about this, and didn't look into the facts of the case.

[B]

I’m not even arguing that there can’t be a good reason, I’m simply saying “hey, it’s fine, no one cares about Ivy League swimming” isn’t good enough (if you were right, I wouldn’t know who Lia Thomas is).

You think you know who Lia Thomas is because she dominated a race in the Ivy League?

You don't think it's because Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson's transphobe armies hunted down the only competitive trans athlete in the United States and amplified the story until it got some traction?

[Rob]

I don’t listen to those guys, B. I will admit, Petersen got my attention for like 6 months, but that was years ago. I don’t like Shapiro. But the thing is it seems like this is the issues with the left. You just blow this off. You’re cool asking me about Ben Shapiro or whatever because I didn’t do my homework on Lia whatever (tho didn’t Bi post the link?), but You’re deflecting from the argument. Lia Thomas is just a stand-In. Do you have an argument for the other anecdotal examples?

I’m here, a very liberal guy… drugs before puberty and “how do sports work” are valid questions.

[B]

I don’t listen to those guys, B. I will admit, Petersen got my attention for like 6 months, but that was years ago. I don’t like Shapiro. But the thing is it seems like this is the issues with the left. You just blow this off. You’re cool asking me about Ben Shapiro or whatever because I didn’t do my homework on Lia whatever (tho didn’t Bi post the link?), but You’re deflecting from the argument. Lia Thomas is just a stand-In. Do you have an argument for the other anecdotal examples?

I’m here, a very liberal guy… drugs before puberty and “how do sports work” are valid questions.

You don't have to listen or like those guys. Those are just the people that beat the drum until it gets into popular consciousness.

I don't really know the solution for sports, and really, I don't know the solution for safe gender affirming care, but I know god damned well that it isn't excluding trans athletes and forcing trans people with support of their doctors and families to continue living a misgendered life because Ron DeSantis has an opinion about it.

A couple of my kids' friends are trans, and I don't think I could tell them that they'll have to stay the gender they are born into because if they change their mind later their bones might not be as strong or that they might have to be a woman with small tits or their friends at school might get the wrong pheromonal signals. That would make ME suicidal.

[Rob]

Not sure anyone here is saying any of that. I want peace and harmony as much as anyone. All I’m saying is that people have questions, and I’m not sure it’s in anyone’s interest to avoid them.

[Mickey]

The thing is, Rob, that you have it backwards. If you think it's normal and acceptable to worry about trans women dominating women's sports due to unfair advantages, then it's incumbent on you to find an example of this happening. Lia Thomas is an example of a trans woman who, as a man, almost certainly would have won multiple events at the Ivy League Championships, transitioned as dictated by NCAA standards, and won multiple events at the Ivy League Championships, plus a very close race at the NCAA Championships. The standards for transitioning have changed and are more stringent, so what Lia did--again, in a context where there was no money on the table and no woman's NCAA record within spitting distance--will never happen again. So either you need to articulate how Lia Thomas is more than just a boogeyman for the anti-trans right-wingers you claim to disdain, or maybe you're not as liberal as you think you are.

[Mickey]

The question, perhaps, is are these people with questions acting in good faith and with adequate knowledge of the situation, or are they getting swept up, perhaps unthinkingly, in anti-trans panic? All the major governing bodies for swimming have adopted standards to deal with trans women athletes. Are your questions about those specific, medical-technical standards? Or are the questions simply of the reflexive "does that seem right to you?" sort?

[Rob]

Mickey, you’re Saying I’m abnormal or backwards for wondering about this. Fine, so be it. Still, all you have to do is simply google “polls on trans sports” and see what it throws your way. This is becoming another issue like immigration, where the conservative answer is cruel and the lefts answer is “fuck off. Depending on the survey, a majority have questions. You can scoff all you want.

Also, I’ll ignore the part of your posts where you imply that getting swept up in media may be at play here. For some maybe, but gimme a break man. I’m not the smartest guy here but I haven’t shown myself to be brainwashed.

[Mickey]

I'm not saying you've been brainwashed! I'm saying the terms of the debate have been set by right-wing media (this is what I mean by a mug's game!) and that, throughout this thread, and without being in any way a bad person, you're re-inscribing those terms. Tons of people might have opinions on trans sports rooted in those same de-facto normalizations of a rigid two gender binary, does that mean we should take them seriously (and thereby continue to tell trans people--hey, we're not sure if you belong)? Does that not seem cruel to you too?

[BurtReynolds]

They wouldn't have adopted those standards without the outrage, and it was driven by common sense and a willingness to say something about it when few would.

That said, the women's sports thing is a pretty minor issue that's easily exploitable by the usual suspects.

[Mickey]

To put it another way, I'm not saying you (Rob) personally are backwards, I'm saying that you have the moral imperative here backwards. It is not (or we should not make it) incumbent on trans people and their supporters to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they're not ruining women's sports. It should be incumbent on the (overwhelmingly right-wing) people who want to make hay about Lia Thomas that there is some real, not hypothetical threat created by allowing trans people to compete in athletic events. If you're really interested in not doing harm, that would be the stance I would take, no matter how popular it is or isn't.

[B]

Not sure anyone here is saying any of that. I want peace and harmony as much as anyone. All I’m saying is that people have questions, and I’m not sure it’s in anyone’s interest to avoid them.

I don't think you're making those arguments, but this thread is thick with them.

[Bammer]

You guys, we are really close to resolving this.

On RM of all places.

Amazing.

[Bi_3]

They wouldn't have adopted those standards without the outrage, and it was driven by common sense and a willingness to say something about it when few would.

That said, the women's sports thing is a pretty minor issue that's easily exploitable by the usual suspects.

Agree on both counts. Sports are a minor issue, but it's the issue that touches the broadest spectrum of our society. It's the gateway conversation to trans inclusion. So avoiding it will give the appearance that you either are putting the wants of the trans community ahead of the concerns of the majority (that you don't care about democracy) or that you have something to hide (which feeds the 'groomer' narrative).

And look:




If we want this data to change the country has to be willing to have the conversation even if it means temporarily platforming "them".

[BurtReynolds]

The right wing pundits can always count on the wokes to respond to any concern with "racistnazibigots", deplatforming (leveraging institutional and corporate power to silence dissent), and the most palpable hatred imaginable, and the pundits know this will make them sound sane in comparison. I long for the day a liberal/leftist/whatever not only rejects this response, but actively condemns it. That person will rule the world.

[Rob]

I'm not saying you've been brainwashed! I'm saying the terms of the debate have been set by right-wing media (this is what I mean by a mug's game!) and that, throughout this thread, and without being in any way a bad person, you're re-inscribing those terms. Tons of people might have opinions on trans sports rooted in those same de-facto normalizations of a rigid two gender binary, does that mean we should take them seriously (and thereby continue to tell trans people--hey, we're not sure if you belong)? Does that not seem cruel to you too?

Yes, it seems cruel. I don’t think Trans people need to prove anything, and should feel as though they belong, same as anyone else. I’m with you (and have been) when it comes to this “moral imperative” you speak of. I just don’t think it’s going to play out that way. The gay rights movement was much easier to sell, because no matter your morality, you couldn’t argue that gay rights affected you or anyone else in any negative way. With the Trans community, you end up with these anecdotal examples of either a kid regretting his/her transition, or a trans weightlifter breaking a record… and I just personally believe that “you have a moral imperative to support this” isn’t helping. “Mine is the moral position” doesn’t work well in politics.