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Joined: Thu January 24, 2013 4:32 am Posts: 20865 Location: Surrounded by Wokes. Please send help.
Bi_3 wrote:
McParadigm wrote:
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McParadigm wrote:
why so many people (on both sides) look at a discussion as complex and rich with ramifications for human acceptance and care as trans rights...and invest more than 5% of their thought on the matter screaming “WHAT ABOUT ORGANIZED SPORTS THOUGH?!”
Because it's a crucial point in acceptance and integration with an intersection to hard earned equal access by feminist activists over the last few decades. Secondarily it acts as true global recognition of where trans people "fit" in global culture right now and suggests a path forward for full integration.
I understand that organized sports is an acceptance point. But is it that much *more* crucial an acceptance point than the Arkansas bill stipulating that educators must refer to students only by their "biological sex,” regardless of student wishes? Or the Iowa bill requiring that any curriculum including gender identity must include "the potential harm and adverse outcomes of social and medical gender interventions?” What about Tennessee debating HB 800, which would fully prohibit educators from discussing LGBTQ issues in the classroom?
Organized sports isn’t irrelevant (and I don’t intend to argue that it is), but I can’t make sense of why it captures *a majority* of the conversation on a topic this vast and full of motion.
It's a global precedent that will be set at the Olympics in just a few weeks that will heavily influence (at least psychologically) how billions view trans athletes and give us our first real world data point of a world-class trans athlete competing against cis people of that gender. It's important. Sure, you could argue that there is a more immediate effect on vulnerable people in those states, but no need to shit on others in the process because they aren't talking about what you think is important. Attempt redirect the conversation instead, and if it takes, it takes.
McParadigm wrote:
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I don’t understand this, either. The fact that people who are mad about trans women competing aren’t mad about trans men competing tells you everything you need to know about...the people who are mad about neither?
It's obviously about the head-in-the-sand denial of male advantage in athletics. But you know that. You're just trying to set me up again.
No. He seems to me to be saying that the framing adopted by trans opposition (very upset about trans women competing, but little to say about trans men competing) is somehow revealing about the attitude of trans supporters.
It's two sides of the same coin. The argument goes that by vociferously denying the existence of biological differences in the two bimodal groupings, in this case an evolved advantage in one of them, they are in effect unlevelling the playing field for the other. If you follow that line of thinking, and I am not saying I do, it certainly is a comment on the thinking (or lack there of) of some trans supporters who either dont or refuse to see this as an attack on cis women's power in society.
This is why athletics is such an important piece of the debate, because it's where biological realism, feminism, and trans advocacy meet head-on.
Why are softball fields half the size of baseball fields?
Joined: Thu January 24, 2013 4:32 am Posts: 20865 Location: Surrounded by Wokes. Please send help.
Anyway, to B’s point about his scout troop and using “he” instead of “she” as best he possibly can ... totally with you on that. You do the best you can and slip ups are not intentional.
Joined: Wed December 19, 2012 9:53 pm Posts: 22539 Location: Chapel Hill, NC, USA
I should also note that my kid's old daycare owner has come out as transgender non-binary, and I don't know what the fuck to do with that. Despite significant googling, I still can't figure out what that means. Ze did not announce preferred pronouns.
_________________ Everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here, now, thank you. How are you?
I should also note that my kid's old daycare owner has come out as transgender non-binary, and I don't know what the fuck to do with that. Despite significant googling, I still can't figure out what that means. Ze did not announce preferred pronouns.
I thought the default for non-binary was they/them.
_________________ Think I’m going to try being kind to everyone a chance.
A thought about the great pronoun debate that I haven't seen brought up anywhere yet is just how rare it is to use gendered pronouns in everyday conversation with the person in question. If you're talking to that person, you're using second person pronouns, and those are gender neutral in the English language, so there's little risk of using the wrong pronoun in that person's presence. The grand majority of the time, if you're using the third person--where gendering does exist--the person you're referring to isn't present.
Thus, most of the arguments that arise on this tend to be in recorded media, where everyone can see or hear the words being created, and is quite divorced from personal conversation. And that makes it no surprise to me that so much of this debate takes place among the Very Online sector of society, while most people don't even think about it that much.
I had some pronoun trouble with a trans boy in my son's Scout troop. Things like when he'd ask for help with something, "Hey Kevin, can you help Jim? She *cough* sorry, he can't find the stakes for his tent." Stuff like that.
At least he knew my goodwill and that that sort of thing was just because I had known him as a girl first and was trying my darnedest.
Yeah, I had a student a couple of years ago and I was like 99% successful calling him "him" but one or two times after he had said something I referred to something "she" had said. I apologized when it happened and he knew it wasn't intentional.
Are there any pronouns you wouldn't use with a non-binary person?
If I was asked to use anything in that chart, I would.
I'd probably just default to "they/them". It's ambiguous to begin with and I don't need to learn to conjugate new words.
_________________ St. Louis (1998, 2000, 2003, 2004, 2010, 2022)
Joined: Wed December 19, 2012 9:53 pm Posts: 22539 Location: Chapel Hill, NC, USA
I've got a couple of guys earning Eagle Scout this weekend. Since girls have been in Scouts for 3 years now, I decided to finally fix all the pronouns in our script for the ceremony. Fucking hell, I can't believe I wasn't just saying, "he he he his his boy boy his he."
_________________ Everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here, now, thank you. How are you?
_________________ "The fatal flaw of all revolutionaries is that they know how to tear things down but don't have a f**king clue about how to build anything."
Joined: Wed December 12, 2012 10:33 pm Posts: 6932
The TERF wars still perplex me since they've yet to really come across this side of the Atlantic in substantial forces--although I'm sure they will at some point. I'm still struggling to fully understand how JK Rowling somehow got cancelled in some quarters.
I dont quite understand it, so dont hold me to this, but it appears that a TERF activist posted a picture of a suffragette ribbon and someone complained it was a noose targeted at Trans folks, which violates Scotland's new anti-malicious communications law. So she was arrested, released, but is facing jail time.
_________________ "The fatal flaw of all revolutionaries is that they know how to tear things down but don't have a f**king clue about how to build anything."
Last edited by Bi_3 on Fri June 04, 2021 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
With the teacher having the right to do that, students should also have the right to not attend his classes.
Loudon is ground zero for the culture wars right now. It also the wealthiest county in the country thanks to data center alley.
_________________ "The fatal flaw of all revolutionaries is that they know how to tear things down but don't have a f**king clue about how to build anything."
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