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Joined: Wed December 19, 2012 9:53 pm Posts: 22531 Location: Chapel Hill, NC, USA
Green Habit wrote:
A thought about the great pronoun debate that I haven't seen brought up anywhere yet is just how rare it is to use gendered pronouns in everyday conversation with the person in question. If you're talking to that person, you're using second person pronouns, and those are gender neutral in the English language, so there's little risk of using the wrong pronoun in that person's presence. The grand majority of the time, if you're using the third person--where gendering does exist--the person you're referring to isn't present.
Thus, most of the arguments that arise on this tend to be in recorded media, where everyone can see or hear the words being created, and is quite divorced from personal conversation. And that makes it no surprise to me that so much of this debate takes place among the Very Online sector of society, while most people don't even think about it that much.
I had some pronoun trouble with a trans boy in my son's Scout troop. Things like when he'd ask for help with something, "Hey Kevin, can you help Jim? She *cough* sorry, he can't find the stakes for his tent." Stuff like that.
At least he knew my goodwill and that that sort of thing was just because I had known him as a girl first and was trying my darnedest.
_________________ Everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here, now, thank you. How are you?
I don’t have a link, but there is a competitive weight lifter making his(?) (her?) (its?) way to the Olympics this year. Used to compete as a man, changed gender at age 35 and now competing against women.
Thoughts?
Are they crushing all the other women in the sport?
We dont have enough data yet as it's a relatively new 'issue' and there are very few examples to pick from. But when you look at other sports, sprinting for example, the top women's records are consistently beaten by high school aged boys and the percentage of under-18s identifying as trans is around 2% now and climbing so it will be an issue in the future.
Exactly. Olympic females wouldn’t place at high school boys track meets.
Does Leatherhead need me to repost the grip strength graph? So help me I will.
We can cherry pick data sets all we want, but that doesnt help ensure opportunities for both cis and trans competitors.
Its not cherry picking. For a wide variety of physical activities, there's almost no overlap between the genders.
Its preposterous to claim that a few years on cross sex hormones will conteract all the benefits of male puberty.
You can argue that providing opportunities for trans athletes are more important than a level playing field, but you can't hand wave away biological differences.
A thought about the great pronoun debate that I haven't seen brought up anywhere yet is just how rare it is to use gendered pronouns in everyday conversation with the person in question. If you're talking to that person, you're using second person pronouns, and those are gender neutral in the English language, so there's little risk of using the wrong pronoun in that person's presence. The grand majority of the time, if you're using the third person--where gendering does exist--the person you're referring to isn't present.
Thus, most of the arguments that arise on this tend to be in recorded media, where everyone can see or hear the words being created, and is quite divorced from personal conversation. And that makes it no surprise to me that so much of this debate takes place among the Very Online sector of society, while most people don't even think about it that much.
I had some pronoun trouble with a trans boy in my son's Scout troop. Things like when he'd ask for help with something, "Hey Kevin, can you help Jim? She *cough* sorry, he can't find the stakes for his tent." Stuff like that.
At least he knew my goodwill and that that sort of thing was just because I had known him as a girl first and was trying my darnedest.
If they made their desired pronouns known and you are doing your best to respect it, especially as you model adult leadership to the group of young people... and I say this with full sincerity... I think that is awesome. It's the exact kind of allyship that is missing from much of the conversation: begin with dignity and grow from there.
_________________ "The fatal flaw of all revolutionaries is that they know how to tear things down but don't have a f**king clue about how to build anything."
A thought about the great pronoun debate that I haven't seen brought up anywhere yet is just how rare it is to use gendered pronouns in everyday conversation with the person in question. If you're talking to that person, you're using second person pronouns, and those are gender neutral in the English language, so there's little risk of using the wrong pronoun in that person's presence. The grand majority of the time, if you're using the third person--where gendering does exist--the person you're referring to isn't present.
Thus, most of the arguments that arise on this tend to be in recorded media, where everyone can see or hear the words being created, and is quite divorced from personal conversation. And that makes it no surprise to me that so much of this debate takes place among the Very Online sector of society, while most people don't even think about it that much.
I had some pronoun trouble with a trans boy in my son's Scout troop. Things like when he'd ask for help with something, "Hey Kevin, can you help Jim? She *cough* sorry, he can't find the stakes for his tent." Stuff like that.
At least he knew my goodwill and that that sort of thing was just because I had known him as a girl first and was trying my darnedest.
Yeah, I had a student a couple of years ago and I was like 99% successful calling him "him" but one or two times after he had said something I referred to something "she" had said. I apologized when it happened and he knew it wasn't intentional.
_________________ "I want to see the whole picture--as nearly as I can. I don't want to put on the blinders of 'good and bad,' and limit my vision."-- In Dubious Battle
A thought about the great pronoun debate that I haven't seen brought up anywhere yet is just how rare it is to use gendered pronouns in everyday conversation with the person in question. If you're talking to that person, you're using second person pronouns, and those are gender neutral in the English language, so there's little risk of using the wrong pronoun in that person's presence. The grand majority of the time, if you're using the third person--where gendering does exist--the person you're referring to isn't present.
Thus, most of the arguments that arise on this tend to be in recorded media, where everyone can see or hear the words being created, and is quite divorced from personal conversation. And that makes it no surprise to me that so much of this debate takes place among the Very Online sector of society, while most people don't even think about it that much.
I had some pronoun trouble with a trans boy in my son's Scout troop. Things like when he'd ask for help with something, "Hey Kevin, can you help Jim? She *cough* sorry, he can't find the stakes for his tent." Stuff like that.
At least he knew my goodwill and that that sort of thing was just because I had known him as a girl first and was trying my darnedest.
Yeah, I had a student a couple of years ago and I was like 99% successful calling him "him" but one or two times after he had said something I referred to something "she" had said. I apologized when it happened and he knew it wasn't intentional.
Are there any pronouns you wouldn't use with a non-binary person?
_________________ Think I’m going to try being kind to everyone a chance.
Joined: Wed December 19, 2012 9:53 pm Posts: 22531 Location: Chapel Hill, NC, USA
surfndestroy wrote:
4/5 wrote:
B wrote:
Green Habit wrote:
A thought about the great pronoun debate that I haven't seen brought up anywhere yet is just how rare it is to use gendered pronouns in everyday conversation with the person in question. If you're talking to that person, you're using second person pronouns, and those are gender neutral in the English language, so there's little risk of using the wrong pronoun in that person's presence. The grand majority of the time, if you're using the third person--where gendering does exist--the person you're referring to isn't present.
Thus, most of the arguments that arise on this tend to be in recorded media, where everyone can see or hear the words being created, and is quite divorced from personal conversation. And that makes it no surprise to me that so much of this debate takes place among the Very Online sector of society, while most people don't even think about it that much.
I had some pronoun trouble with a trans boy in my son's Scout troop. Things like when he'd ask for help with something, "Hey Kevin, can you help Jim? She *cough* sorry, he can't find the stakes for his tent." Stuff like that.
At least he knew my goodwill and that that sort of thing was just because I had known him as a girl first and was trying my darnedest.
Yeah, I had a student a couple of years ago and I was like 99% successful calling him "him" but one or two times after he had said something I referred to something "she" had said. I apologized when it happened and he knew it wasn't intentional.
Are there any pronouns you wouldn't use with a non-binary person?
If I was asked to use anything in that chart, I would.
_________________ Everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here, now, thank you. How are you?
A thought about the great pronoun debate that I haven't seen brought up anywhere yet is just how rare it is to use gendered pronouns in everyday conversation with the person in question. If you're talking to that person, you're using second person pronouns, and those are gender neutral in the English language, so there's little risk of using the wrong pronoun in that person's presence. The grand majority of the time, if you're using the third person--where gendering does exist--the person you're referring to isn't present.
Thus, most of the arguments that arise on this tend to be in recorded media, where everyone can see or hear the words being created, and is quite divorced from personal conversation. And that makes it no surprise to me that so much of this debate takes place among the Very Online sector of society, while most people don't even think about it that much.
I had some pronoun trouble with a trans boy in my son's Scout troop. Things like when he'd ask for help with something, "Hey Kevin, can you help Jim? She *cough* sorry, he can't find the stakes for his tent." Stuff like that.
At least he knew my goodwill and that that sort of thing was just because I had known him as a girl first and was trying my darnedest.
_________________ "The fatal flaw of all revolutionaries is that they know how to tear things down but don't have a f**king clue about how to build anything."
Joined: Wed December 19, 2012 9:53 pm Posts: 22531 Location: Chapel Hill, NC, USA
spike wrote:
B wrote:
Green Habit wrote:
A thought about the great pronoun debate that I haven't seen brought up anywhere yet is just how rare it is to use gendered pronouns in everyday conversation with the person in question. If you're talking to that person, you're using second person pronouns, and those are gender neutral in the English language, so there's little risk of using the wrong pronoun in that person's presence. The grand majority of the time, if you're using the third person--where gendering does exist--the person you're referring to isn't present.
Thus, most of the arguments that arise on this tend to be in recorded media, where everyone can see or hear the words being created, and is quite divorced from personal conversation. And that makes it no surprise to me that so much of this debate takes place among the Very Online sector of society, while most people don't even think about it that much.
I had some pronoun trouble with a trans boy in my son's Scout troop. Things like when he'd ask for help with something, "Hey Kevin, can you help Jim? She *cough* sorry, he can't find the stakes for his tent." Stuff like that.
At least he knew my goodwill and that that sort of thing was just because I had known him as a girl first and was trying my darnedest.
they went with jim?
Names have been changed to protect the innocent.
_________________ Everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here, now, thank you. How are you?
A thought about the great pronoun debate that I haven't seen brought up anywhere yet is just how rare it is to use gendered pronouns in everyday conversation with the person in question. If you're talking to that person, you're using second person pronouns, and those are gender neutral in the English language, so there's little risk of using the wrong pronoun in that person's presence. The grand majority of the time, if you're using the third person--where gendering does exist--the person you're referring to isn't present.
Thus, most of the arguments that arise on this tend to be in recorded media, where everyone can see or hear the words being created, and is quite divorced from personal conversation. And that makes it no surprise to me that so much of this debate takes place among the Very Online sector of society, while most people don't even think about it that much.
I had some pronoun trouble with a trans boy in my son's Scout troop. Things like when he'd ask for help with something, "Hey Kevin, can you help Jim? She *cough* sorry, he can't find the stakes for his tent." Stuff like that.
At least he knew my goodwill and that that sort of thing was just because I had known him as a girl first and was trying my darnedest.
I’ll never understand why so many people (on both sides) look at a discussion as complex and rich with ramifications for human acceptance and care as trans rights...and invest more than 5% of their thought on the matter screaming “WHAT ABOUT ORGANIZED SPORTS THOUGH?!”
Quote:
I don’t understand this, either. The fact that people who are mad about trans women competing aren’t mad about trans men competing tells you everything you need to know about...the people who are mad about neither?
why so many people (on both sides) look at a discussion as complex and rich with ramifications for human acceptance and care as trans rights...and invest more than 5% of their thought on the matter screaming “WHAT ABOUT ORGANIZED SPORTS THOUGH?!”
Because it's a crucial point in acceptance and integration with an intersection to hard earned equal access by feminist activists over the last few decades. Secondarily it acts as true global recognition of where trans people "fit" in global culture right now and suggests a path forward for full integration.
McParadigm wrote:
Quote:
I don’t understand this, either. The fact that people who are mad about trans women competing aren’t mad about trans men competing tells you everything you need to know about...the people who are mad about neither?
It's obviously about the head-in-the-sand denial of male advantage in athletics. But you know that. You're just trying to set me up again.
_________________ "The fatal flaw of all revolutionaries is that they know how to tear things down but don't have a f**king clue about how to build anything."
why so many people (on both sides) look at a discussion as complex and rich with ramifications for human acceptance and care as trans rights...and invest more than 5% of their thought on the matter screaming “WHAT ABOUT ORGANIZED SPORTS THOUGH?!”
Because it's a crucial point in acceptance and integration with an intersection to hard earned equal access by feminist activists over the last few decades. Secondarily it acts as true global recognition of where trans people "fit" in global culture right now and suggests a path forward for full integration.
I understand that organized sports is an acceptance point. But is it that much *more* crucial an acceptance point than the Arkansas bill stipulating that educators must refer to students only by their "biological sex,” regardless of student wishes? Or the Iowa bill requiring that any curriculum including gender identity must include "the potential harm and adverse outcomes of social and medical gender interventions?” What about Tennessee debating HB 800, which would fully prohibit educators from discussing LGBTQ issues in the classroom?
Organized sports isn’t irrelevant (and I don’t intend to argue that it is), but I can’t make sense of why it captures *a majority* of the conversation on a topic this vast and full of motion.
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I don’t understand this, either. The fact that people who are mad about trans women competing aren’t mad about trans men competing tells you everything you need to know about...the people who are mad about neither?
It's obviously about the hand-in-the-sand denial of male advantage in athletics. But you know that. You're just trying to set me up again.
No. He seems to me to be saying that the framing adopted by trans opposition (very upset about trans women competing, but little to say about trans men competing) is somehow revealing about the attitude of trans supporters.
Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 7:41 am Posts: 19722 Location: Cumberland, RI
McParadigm wrote:
Organized sports isn’t irrelevant (and I don’t intend to argue that it is), but I can’t make sense of why it captures *a majority* of the conversation on a topic this vast and full of motion.
They tried to center it around bathrooms and that didn't really work, and the only thing Americans like more than shitting is sports. Ergo
Organized sports isn’t irrelevant (and I don’t intend to argue that it is), but I can’t make sense of why it captures *a majority* of the conversation on a topic this vast and full of motion.
Really. You don't understand why a decision in sports that could negatively impact every cis female gains more attention than a law, as bad as it is, that impacts at most 2% of people in select states.
In general people talk about things that concern them or people they know versus people they don't know. Skin in the game or something like that.
_________________ Think I’m going to try being kind to everyone a chance.
Mandating information on possible negative outcomes seems like a blunt instrument, but from what detransitioners are saying, the downsides are very much played down. Are patients informed of the issues around bone density? Can a dumb kid who got all their information from Tumblr and a few meetings with a gender therapist be considered to really have informed consent? The push to remove 'gatekeepers' is fairly extreme compared to most other medical interventions.
Maybe a few medical malpractice suits will improve the communication from medical providers, so maybe it'll just solve itself.
Joined: Wed December 12, 2012 10:33 pm Posts: 6932
Bi_3 wrote:
B wrote:
Green Habit wrote:
A thought about the great pronoun debate that I haven't seen brought up anywhere yet is just how rare it is to use gendered pronouns in everyday conversation with the person in question. If you're talking to that person, you're using second person pronouns, and those are gender neutral in the English language, so there's little risk of using the wrong pronoun in that person's presence. The grand majority of the time, if you're using the third person--where gendering does exist--the person you're referring to isn't present.
Thus, most of the arguments that arise on this tend to be in recorded media, where everyone can see or hear the words being created, and is quite divorced from personal conversation. And that makes it no surprise to me that so much of this debate takes place among the Very Online sector of society, while most people don't even think about it that much.
I had some pronoun trouble with a trans boy in my son's Scout troop. Things like when he'd ask for help with something, "Hey Kevin, can you help Jim? She *cough* sorry, he can't find the stakes for his tent." Stuff like that.
At least he knew my goodwill and that that sort of thing was just because I had known him as a girl first and was trying my darnedest.
If they made their desired pronouns known and you are doing your best to respect it, especially as you model adult leadership to the group of young people... and I say this with full sincerity... I think that is awesome. It's the exact kind of allyship that is missing from much of the conversation: begin with dignity and grow from there.
Well said by both of you. More people need to operate in good faith on all sides of discourse.
A thought about the great pronoun debate that I haven't seen brought up anywhere yet is just how rare it is to use gendered pronouns in everyday conversation with the person in question. If you're talking to that person, you're using second person pronouns, and those are gender neutral in the English language, so there's little risk of using the wrong pronoun in that person's presence. The grand majority of the time, if you're using the third person--where gendering does exist--the person you're referring to isn't present.
Thus, most of the arguments that arise on this tend to be in recorded media, where everyone can see or hear the words being created, and is quite divorced from personal conversation. And that makes it no surprise to me that so much of this debate takes place among the Very Online sector of society, while most people don't even think about it that much.
I had some pronoun trouble with a trans boy in my son's Scout troop. Things like when he'd ask for help with something, "Hey Kevin, can you help Jim? She *cough* sorry, he can't find the stakes for his tent." Stuff like that.
At least he knew my goodwill and that that sort of thing was just because I had known him as a girl first and was trying my darnedest.
If they made their desired pronouns known and you are doing your best to respect it, especially as you model adult leadership to the group of young people... and I say this with full sincerity... I think that is awesome. It's the exact kind of allyship that is missing from much of the conversation: begin with dignity and grow from there.
Well said by both of you. More people need to operate in good faith on all sides of discourse.
I am full on about using and have used a trans person's preferred pronouns. I have not come across the request to use non-binary pronouns. I hope I would but I'd be grinding my teeth the whole time. Like why are you making my life more difficult that it needs be. I think I would just default to referring to them by name only.
_________________ Think I’m going to try being kind to everyone a chance.
why so many people (on both sides) look at a discussion as complex and rich with ramifications for human acceptance and care as trans rights...and invest more than 5% of their thought on the matter screaming “WHAT ABOUT ORGANIZED SPORTS THOUGH?!”
Because it's a crucial point in acceptance and integration with an intersection to hard earned equal access by feminist activists over the last few decades. Secondarily it acts as true global recognition of where trans people "fit" in global culture right now and suggests a path forward for full integration.
I understand that organized sports is an acceptance point. But is it that much *more* crucial an acceptance point than the Arkansas bill stipulating that educators must refer to students only by their "biological sex,” regardless of student wishes? Or the Iowa bill requiring that any curriculum including gender identity must include "the potential harm and adverse outcomes of social and medical gender interventions?” What about Tennessee debating HB 800, which would fully prohibit educators from discussing LGBTQ issues in the classroom?
Organized sports isn’t irrelevant (and I don’t intend to argue that it is), but I can’t make sense of why it captures *a majority* of the conversation on a topic this vast and full of motion.
It's a global precedent that will be set at the Olympics in just a few weeks that will heavily influence (at least psychologically) how billions view trans athletes and give us our first real world data point of a world-class trans athlete competing against cis people of that gender. It's important. Sure, you could argue that there is a more immediate effect on vulnerable people in those states, but no need to shit on others in the process because they aren't talking about what you think is important. Attempt redirect the conversation instead, and if it takes, it takes.
McParadigm wrote:
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I don’t understand this, either. The fact that people who are mad about trans women competing aren’t mad about trans men competing tells you everything you need to know about...the people who are mad about neither?
It's obviously about the head-in-the-sand denial of male advantage in athletics. But you know that. You're just trying to set me up again.
No. He seems to me to be saying that the framing adopted by trans opposition (very upset about trans women competing, but little to say about trans men competing) is somehow revealing about the attitude of trans supporters.
It's two sides of the same coin. The argument goes that by vociferously denying the existence of biological differences in the two bimodal groupings, in this case an evolved advantage in one of them, they are in effect unlevelling the playing field for the other. If you follow that line of thinking, and I am not saying I do, it certainly is a comment on the thinking (or lack there of) of some trans supporters who either dont or refuse to see this as an attack on cis women's power in society.
This is why athletics is such an important piece of the debate, because it's where biological realism, feminism, and trans advocacy meet head-on.
_________________ "The fatal flaw of all revolutionaries is that they know how to tear things down but don't have a f**king clue about how to build anything."
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