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 Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
PostPosted: Wed July 15, 2020 5:45 pm 
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The Master
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I am loath to side with my good friend Burt on a conversation about race but if I'm honest I never understood the "it's impossible to be racist against whites" take; not only does it strike me as especially americentric but it also seems to rely on a definition of the word "racist" that is a fair bit removed from how it is used and understood in common parlance, one that posits that the "systemic" modifier (like how we're using it in this thread title) is inherent to the word itself

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 Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
PostPosted: Wed July 15, 2020 5:49 pm 
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Jorge wrote:
I am loath to side with my good friend Burt on a conversation about race but if I'm honest I never understood the "it's impossible to be racist against whites" take; not only does it strike me as especially americentric but it also seems to rely on a definition of the word "racist" that is a fair bit removed from how it is understood in common parlance, one that posits that the "systemic" modifier (like how we're using it in this thread title) is inherent to the word itself



the dictionary was recently modified to accommodate this:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/09/us/dicti ... index.html

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 Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
PostPosted: Wed July 15, 2020 5:50 pm 
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But also, there is no "the dictionary" as a single monolithic figure, and dictionaries are by nature descriptive and not prescriptive, so that's not really relevant

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 Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
PostPosted: Wed July 15, 2020 5:54 pm 
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BurtReynolds wrote:
Brainwashed

Brain-dead


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 Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
PostPosted: Wed July 15, 2020 5:55 pm 
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Its more that someone like Nick Cannon only has that power once someone realizes that he is actually rich and famous. Many black celebrities have stories of being pulled over/harassed, the situation escalating, and it only de-escalating once the cop realizes "hey, you're ---------." This happens all the time, and the natural question is "what would have happened had that Black person not been rich and famous?"


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 Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
PostPosted: Wed July 15, 2020 6:00 pm 
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An enigma of a man shaped hole in the wall between reality and the soul of the devil.
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Bi_3 wrote:
BurtReynolds wrote:
Brainwashed


It's that weird distinction between societal prominence and individual power. For some reason people with extreme power as individuals (e.g. multi-millionaire celebs like Mr. Cannon) are seen as less powerful than arbitrary members of what is currently the majority group (e.g. some laid-off coal miner living in a trailer). I don't understand it.

None of this matters because being a racist has nothing to do with how much power you have.

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 Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
PostPosted: Wed July 15, 2020 6:01 pm 
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White people can certainly be victims of bigotry and intolerance.

Does it affect their ability to get a home loan? A job? Does it affect the medical care they get? Does it affect how teachers treat their children in schools? Does it affect how they are treated should they choose to protest? Does it affect how they are treated while legally carrying a gun? Does it affect how they are treated in a court of law?

The answer is usually "no," which is where that thought process comes from. If you actually think about the mechanisms of how race works in America and don't just take it at face value, it makes a lot of sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
PostPosted: Wed July 15, 2020 6:03 pm 
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Orpheus wrote:
Its more that someone like Nick Cannon only has that power once someone realizes that he is actually rich and famous. Many black celebrities have stories of being pulled over/harassed, the situation escalating, and it only de-escalating once the cop realizes "hey, you're ---------." This happens all the time, and the natural question is "what would have happened had that Black person not been rich and famous?"

Exactly. To further your point, it's not even limited to "rich and famous." We don't need to look any further than Arturo Holmes II.


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 Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
PostPosted: Wed July 15, 2020 6:05 pm 
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Orpheus wrote:
White people can certainly be victims of bigotry and intolerance.

Does it affect their ability to get a home loan? A job? Does it affect the medical care they get? Does it affect how teachers treat their children in schools? Does it affect how they are treated should they choose to protest? Does it affect how they are treated while legally carrying a gun? Does it affect how they are treated in a court of law?

The answer is usually "no," which is where that thought process comes from. If you actually think about the mechanisms of how race works in America and don't just take it at face value, it makes a lot of sense.

Lol no it doesn't.

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 Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
PostPosted: Wed July 15, 2020 6:06 pm 
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durdencommatyler wrote:
Orpheus wrote:
Its more that someone like Nick Cannon only has that power once someone realizes that he is actually rich and famous. Many black celebrities have stories of being pulled over/harassed, the situation escalating, and it only de-escalating once the cop realizes "hey, you're ---------." This happens all the time, and the natural question is "what would have happened had that Black person not been rich and famous?"

Exactly. To further your point, it's not even limited to "rich and famous." We don't need to look any further than Arturo Holmes II.

You're an expert in "not looking further".

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 Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
PostPosted: Wed July 15, 2020 6:09 pm 
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Do you have any substantive reply to what I actually wrote? Do you think whites and blacks have the same experiences with the systems described above? This is what we're actually discussing.


Have any of the white people here ever actually had to deal with discrimination in any of these areas? Or are your feelings getting hurt because you get called names sometimes?


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 Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
PostPosted: Wed July 15, 2020 6:12 pm 
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Orpheus wrote:
Its more that someone like Nick Cannon only has that power once someone realizes that he is actually rich and famous. Many black celebrities have stories of being pulled over/harassed, the situation escalating, and it only de-escalating once the cop realizes "hey, you're ---------." This happens all the time, and the natural question is "what would have happened had that Black person not been rich and famous?"


That's different. The situation you are describing is systemic racism, which is certainly real, but does it's existence mean that individual racism (the combination of bigotry and non-group derived power) does not exist? In this case he was exercising his unique platform to voluntarily send hate speech into the world. That is power + bigotry, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
PostPosted: Wed July 15, 2020 6:12 pm 
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BurtReynolds wrote:
durdencommatyler wrote:
Orpheus wrote:
Its more that someone like Nick Cannon only has that power once someone realizes that he is actually rich and famous. Many black celebrities have stories of being pulled over/harassed, the situation escalating, and it only de-escalating once the cop realizes "hey, you're ---------." This happens all the time, and the natural question is "what would have happened had that Black person not been rich and famous?"

Exactly. To further your point, it's not even limited to "rich and famous." We don't need to look any further than Arturo Holmes II.

You're an expert in "not looking further".

:roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
PostPosted: Wed July 15, 2020 6:15 pm 
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Orpheus wrote:
Do you have any substantive reply to what I actually wrote? Do you think whites and blacks have the same experiences with the systems described above? This is what we're actually discussing.


Have any of the white people here ever actually had to deal with discrimination in any of these areas? Or are your feelings getting hurt because you get called names sometimes?

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize you got to dictate "what we're actually discussing". I'll just keep discussing what I want though.

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 Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
PostPosted: Wed July 15, 2020 6:17 pm 
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Obviously what he said is idiotic and unfortunate. The ravings of one moron don't really matter against 400 years of racism though, at least to me.

Y'all have this thing where one idiot is supposed to be an effective counterpoint to centuries of suffering, and sorry, i just can't give a shit. Is anyone listening to Nick fucking Cannon? No.

But lots of black people are dead who shouldn't be. It's called perspective, and it's why I can't take some of yall seriously. White people typically have to go digging for this shit. It comes to black people's homes and murders them.


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 Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
PostPosted: Wed July 15, 2020 6:18 pm 
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BurtReynolds wrote:
Orpheus wrote:
Do you have any substantive reply to what I actually wrote? Do you think whites and blacks have the same experiences with the systems described above? This is what we're actually discussing.


Have any of the white people here ever actually had to deal with discrimination in any of these areas? Or are your feelings getting hurt because you get called names sometimes?

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize you got to dictate "what we're actually discussing". I'll just keep discussing what I want though.

I'm offering a very genuine answer to the topic that was posed. You're saying "LOL NOPE!" Do you have anything substantive to say?


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 Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
PostPosted: Wed July 15, 2020 6:19 pm 
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I think I’ve posted here before about how I will occasionally get a huge stack of resumés for a job opening and at some point I will have to find something to use as a filter, so I will go to the person’s name.

To be perfectly clear I have no filter for nationality or race. I am purely after people whose parents were unfortunately douchebags and named their kid something like Atlas or Vedder.

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 Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
PostPosted: Wed July 15, 2020 6:20 pm 
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"No one's listening to Louis Farrakhan guys it's all just in your imagination. People's very right to exist is at stake don't discuss this! etc etc etc"

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 Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
PostPosted: Wed July 15, 2020 6:25 pm 
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BurtReynolds wrote:
"No one's listening to Louis Farrakhan guys it's all just in your imagination. People's very right to exist is at stake don't discuss this! etc etc etc"


Adress what I wrote. Do White people experience discrimination and racism in the areas of housing, law, medicine, criminal justice and politics in the same measure that Black people do? What the fuck does a fringe figure like Farrakhan have to do with any of that.

You do your dumb little quoting thing because at the end of the day you know your fringe bullshit and strawmen can't stand up to actual reality.


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 Post subject: Re: Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism
PostPosted: Wed July 15, 2020 6:26 pm 
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"Haha black people are dying and I love confederate flags did you know Farrakhan is killing all the whites lol don't worry man!"

Look, I can also post completely useless non-sequiturs! Look at me!!!


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