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 Post subject: Re: On The Media: Where Do You Get Your News?
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 11:11 pm 
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digster wrote:
Rob wrote:
Fox News has almost as many viewers as MSNBC & CNN combined. Pretty sure Rush has like 10x the audience of Maddow. There's an entire right wing media empire out there, yet these "liberal media" arguments only get louder. It makes no sense. The argument is that the Liberal media/journalists are indoctrinating/influencing people. But in real life, the left doesn't seem to agree on anything, while Trump, a mostly insane man, is able to (credibly) cite polling that shows 85-90% of the GOP approves of him. It's almost as if their future depends on this argument still resonating.


This. Would anyone try to raise an argument that feeling aggrieved and victimized by a liberal media elite is far more central to defining conservatism in the present day that, for example, fiscal discipline? Which do you think matters more? If it's a part of your identity, you're not just going to give it up.

And of course, there's an argument that conservatives' emphasis on fiscal discipline was always a crock that wasn't backed with action, but I'd argue that in terms of how they self-identified as conservative it used to hold some import.


I think this is essentially Corey Robin's argument, no? That conservatism has long been founded primarily on an *affective* and not an intellectual relationship to society, one based in feelings of resentment.


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 Post subject: Re: On The Media: Where Do You Get Your News?
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 1:38 am 
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All great except I think there’s ample record of conservatives practicing “fiscal discipline” as they’d define it.


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 Post subject: Re: On The Media: Where Do You Get Your News?
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 2:24 am 
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...ample?


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 Post subject: Re: On The Media: Where Do You Get Your News?
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 2:45 am 
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Absolutely. If you've not already, dive into your state's legislative history. I bet you'll find a ton of instances of Tea Party legislators banding together to block any bill that features increased state spending.


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 Post subject: Re: On The Media: Where Do You Get Your News?
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 6:14 am 
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Money isn't real you dumbasses


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 Post subject: Re: On The Media: Where Do You Get Your News?
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 6:39 am 
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I follow Rando* twitter accounts have been far more accurate and reliable than the CDC or the WHO.

And it seems like the censorship will just continue to ratchet up. Its gonna be interesting when Qanon devotees are all on VPNs and Tor (or whatever new version isn't quite so compromised by Fed exit nodes), and then I join them because fuck the gatekeepers.

*Carefully curated twitter randos

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 Post subject: Re: On The Media: Where Do You Get Your News?
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 11:02 am 
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digster wrote:
Rob wrote:
Fox News has almost as many viewers as MSNBC & CNN combined. Pretty sure Rush has like 10x the audience of Maddow. There's an entire right wing media empire out there, yet these "liberal media" arguments only get louder. It makes no sense. The argument is that the Liberal media/journalists are indoctrinating/influencing people. But in real life, the left doesn't seem to agree on anything, while Trump, a mostly insane man, is able to (credibly) cite polling that shows 85-90% of the GOP approves of him. It's almost as if their future depends on this argument still resonating.


This. Would anyone try to raise an argument that feeling aggrieved and victimized by a liberal media elite is far more central to defining conservatism in the present day that, for example, fiscal discipline? Which do you think matters more? If it's a part of your identity, you're not just going to give it up.

And of course, there's an argument that conservatives' emphasis on fiscal discipline was always a crock that wasn't backed with action, but I'd argue that in terms of how they self-identified as conservative it used to hold some import.



At least we can agree this is a thing. Why should they continue to pretend they are not?

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 Post subject: Re: On The Media: Where Do You Get Your News?
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 2:08 pm 
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Why do we need to switch its name to “liberal media” when we already call it MSNBC?

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 Post subject: Re: On The Media: Where Do You Get Your News?
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 10:36 pm 
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My question is why is the "liberal" media is singled out when the (large) conservative media is 10x more guilty of all the things they allege are happening.


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 Post subject: Re: On The Media: Where Do You Get Your News?
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 10:37 pm 
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Because conservative media is better at it.


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 Post subject: Re: On The Media: Where Do You Get Your News?
PostPosted: Mon June 01, 2020 6:30 pm 
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CNN turns 40 today...one of the first stories was out of New York about how someone nearly shot New York Yankees star Reggie Jackson over an argument regarding a parking space (Jackson was not injured)....


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 Post subject: Re: On The Media: Where Do You Get Your News?
PostPosted: Tue June 02, 2020 8:22 pm 
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WaPo has just updated their front page to make their Op-Eds more readily identifiable. :hooray:


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 Post subject: Re: On The Media: Where Do You Get Your News?
PostPosted: Fri June 05, 2020 1:04 am 
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Laura Ingraham can eat shit...more now than most days


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 Post subject: Re: On The Media: Where Do You Get Your News?
PostPosted: Fri June 05, 2020 1:06 am 
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i promise i'll be nicer and normal tomorrow and stick with whiskey gifs


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 Post subject: Re: On The Media: Where Do You Get Your News?
PostPosted: Tue June 09, 2020 3:20 pm 
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Rob wrote:
My question is why is the "liberal" media is singled out when the (large) conservative media is 10x more guilty of all the things they allege are happening.



https://www.wsj.com/articles/cancel-culture-journalism-11591658340


Quote:
Cancel Culture Journalism
Two liberal editors fall for violations against progressive orthodoxy.
June 8, 2020 7:19 pm ET


The purge of senior editors at progressive newspapers this weekend is no cause for cheering. Their resignations are another milestone in the march of identity politics and cancel culture through our liberal institutions, and American journalism and democracy will be worse for it.

The long-time editor of the Philadelphia Inquirer, who’d seen the publication through difficult times, was pushed out over a headline, “Buildings Matter, Too.” It was atop a piece by architecture critic Inga Saffron, who worried that buildings damaged by violence could “leave a gaping hole in the heart of Philadelphia.” Staff members deemed the headline an offense to Black Lives Matter. They protested, and no amount of apologizing or changes to the headline were enough. Editor Stan Wischnowski didn’t last the week.

At the New York Times, editorial page editor James Bennet resigned Sunday after a staff uproar over an op-ed by a U.S. Senator. Arkansas Republican Tom Cotton wrote that military troops should be sent to restore public order in American cities when the police are overwhelmed. A staff revolt deemed the piece fascist, unconstitutional, and too offensive for adults to read and decide for themselves.

Our editorial last week opposed deploying active-duty troops, but the idea is legal under the Insurrection Act. George H.W. Bush deployed troops in 1992 to quell riots in Los Angeles after the Rodney King verdict, and other Presidents have done it too.

Mr. Bennet defended the op-ed on Friday as part of his attempt to broaden debate in his pages, and at first so did publisher A.G. Sulzberger. But Mr. Sulzberger changed his mind the same day, suddenly declaring that the op-ed he had defended had not received proper editing and should not have been published. By Sunday Mr. Bennet, as true-blue a progressive as you can find, was out the door. James Dao, the opinion editor who had signed off on the Cotton op-ed, was reassigned.

An ostensibly independent opinion section was ransacked because the social-justice warriors in the newsroom opposed a single article espousing a view that polls show tens of millions of Americans support if the police can’t handle rioting and violence. The publisher failed to back up his editors, which means the editors no longer run the place. The struggle sessions on Twitter and Slack channels rule.

All of this shows the extent to which American journalism is now dominated by the same moral denunciation, “safe space” demands, and identity-politics dogmas that began in the universities. The agents of this politics now dominate nearly all of America’s leading cultural institutions—museums, philanthropy, Hollywood, book publishers, even late-night talk shows.

On matters deemed sacrosanct—and today that includes the view that America is root-and-branch racist—there is no room for debate. You must admit your failure to appreciate this orthodoxy and do penance, or you will not survive in the job.

Some of our friends on the right are pleased because they say all of this merely exposes what has long been true. But this takeover of the Times and other liberal bastions means that there are ever fewer institutions that will defend free inquiry and the contest of ideas that once defined American liberalism.

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 Post subject: Re: On The Media: Where Do You Get Your News?
PostPosted: Fri June 12, 2020 10:09 am 
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Just the fringe. A tiny portion of college students. It’s not real.

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The woke revolution in American journalism has begun

Damon Linker
June 11, 2020

When we think about revolutions, we envision acts of violence: the storming and overrunning of barricades, the sharpening of guillotine blades, regicide. But what's most essential to revolution isn't the bloodletting. It's the change in regime — the shift in the orienting principles or ideals of the community or organization. Whether individuals in power hang on to their positions or are deposed matters less than whether the prevailing standards the community or organization looks up to, admires, and reveres fundamentally shift. When such a shift occurs, a revolution has been accomplished.

We've living through a revolutionary moment in American journalism right now.

It's been building slowly over the past few years. A conservative or centrist pundit pens a controversial column — or a news story treats with empathy a person or group expressing views at odds with progressive convictions — and a firestorm ignites on Twitter, with staffers at the news organization that published the offending piece joining with peers at other outlets and ideologically allied readers in expressing fury at the decision to run the article or op-ed.

These storms have become more frequent and more severe as the insults and provocations of the Trump administration have piled up. But only in the past two weeks, as protests against the killing of George Floyd by a white Minneapolis police officer have spread across the country and the president has spoken and acted precipitously in response, have they exploded into outright newsroom rebellions.

The volatile situation at The New York Times — with staff uproar upon the publication of a highly controversial op-ed by Republican Sen. Tom Cotton (Ark.) roiling the paper for days and leading to the resignation of editorial page editor James Bennet — has received the bulk of the coverage. But the situation at the Times isn't the only example of staffers at news organizations rising up against perceived deviations from the progressive orthodoxy and demanding a greater say in (and veto power over) what gets published. When this has happened, at the Times and elsewhere, those holding the institutional power have capitulated.

We've been here before — on college campuses in the late 1960s, when student protesters occupied buildings, making demands for curricular and other changes, and administrators and prominent faculty members gave in across the board. The students at Columbia and Cornell were leading a revolution from the left, and the authorities who surrendered to them were liberals. The liberals folded because they were terrified of bad publicity, but also because they felt shamed by the moral purity, clarity, passion, and certainty of the young rebels. In all those respects, our newsroom revolutions are following the same script.

But what exactly is the character of these revolutions? How will the new order differ from the old? What new principles and ideals do the insurrectionists aim to institute?

It's important to clarify at the outset what the change is not aiming to do. The revolutionaries are not attempting to impose political or moral standards where they were once absent. No newsroom is politically neutral and no editorial page ideologically unbiased. Every community, every organization, and certainly every journalistic enterprise makes decisions about what's acceptable and what isn't, where lines should be drawn, and what kinds of statements belong on which sides of those lines. Reporters and editors make judgments every day about what's worth thinking about, taking seriously, and engaging with.

The rebels want to move the lines and impose new standards. Ben Smith's recent and very informative essay in the Times about the revolts erupting in America's newsrooms helps us to understand the character of the proposed changes. The journalists Smith quotes and paraphrases believe that "fairness on issues from race to Donald Trump requires clear moral calls." That news organizations need to be devoted to "the truth" rather than some spurious ideal of "objectivity." That in all things "moral clarity" is required. And that a journalist determines whether he or she has achieved such righteousness by measuring the volume of applause from likeminded followers on Twitter.

But what's absent from Smith's essay may be even more illuminating than what's in it. No one acknowledges the difficulty of achieving moral clarity. No one notes that there are precious few "clear moral calls" in life. No one demonstrates awareness that "the truth," like justice, is something our country is deeply divided about. No one expresses an understanding of how those divisions shape everyone's standpoint, very much including that of journalists themselves. Or concedes that understanding a country as complex and divided as the United States might require a little humility and willingness to suspend judgment for a time.

In place of difficulty, complexity, and complication, today's journalistic revolutionaries crave tidy moral lessons with clear villains and heroes. They champion simplicity, embrace moral uplift, and seek out evildoers to demonize.

That's how it is with crusades, whether theological or moral — they excuse words and deeds that in other contexts would be considered unacceptable. How many journalists have falsely testified that Cotton's op-ed advocated shooting protesters when it did no such thing? How many routinely rip the president's statements out of context in order to make him sound even worse than he does all on his own?

Such errors reveal how the revolutionaries conceive of the "news" — as a fluid and malleable "truth" to be weaponized to advance the self-evident Higher Truth of justice as they understand it. We also see this at work in the way the newsroom rebels cloak their political goals in the bureaucratic language of human resources, complete with appeals to "workplace safety." (Smith recounts how Times staffers outraged at Cotton's op-ed strategized about how to respond before settling on a maximally potent viral tweet reading, "Running this puts Black @nytimes staff in danger.")

It can make for a formidable PR push — which partially explains why liberals in positions of authority have been so quick to capitulate.

But an explanation isn't the same as an excuse.

Liberals aren't relativists. They're people who recognize that achieving understanding is hard, that what justice entails and requires is deeply contested in the United States, and that a news organization that aspires to explain our fractious country to itself cannot be guided by the sensibility of a single-issue activist. Lines need to be drawn, but they should be drawn broadly. A serious news organization cannot exclude views championed by one of the country's two major political parties and held by more than 40 percent of the country's voters.
Trump never saw a Christian protester coming
A low-circulation magazine with an explicitly partisan agenda can have a narrower scope. So can a propaganda network like Fox News. But a news outlet with national ambitions needs to aim higher — and broader — than that.

That's why the woke revolution in American newsrooms is so disheartening — not because it's a victory for the left, but because it's yet another sign of the hollowing out of the nation's public life, as individuals and institutions burrow ever-deeper into ideological enclaves. It is a victory for narrowness and dogmatism, for unearned certainty and facile simplifications. Which means it's also a defeat for the American mind, which finds itself ever more alienated from reality itself.

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 Post subject: Re: On The Media: Where Do You Get Your News?
PostPosted: Fri June 12, 2020 10:55 am 
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Rob wrote:
Fox News has almost as many viewers as MSNBC & CNN combined. Pretty sure Rush has like 10x the audience of Maddow. There's an entire right wing media empire out there, yet these "liberal media" arguments only get louder. It makes no sense. The argument is that the Liberal media/journalists are indoctrinating/influencing people. But in real life, the left doesn't seem to agree on anything, while Trump, a mostly insane man, is able to (credibly) cite polling that shows 85-90% of the GOP approves of him. It's almost as if their future depends on this argument still resonating.



FOX's size doesn't disprove the media being overwhelmingly liberal, it proves it. The reason FOX news is so much larger is because they are the only game in town. They have a monopoly on a very underserved audience. CNN has to compete with MSNBC, BBC, PBS, ABC, NBC, CBS and a host of soft news shows like Daily Show, not to mention other heavily liberal cable channels.

The "right wing media empire" is made up of a comparatively tiny number of outlets.

The right does dominate talk radio, for whatever that's worth, but that doesn't remotely make up the imbalance, and there is still NPR.

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 Post subject: Re: On The Media: Where Do You Get Your News?
PostPosted: Fri June 12, 2020 2:39 pm 
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BurtReynolds wrote:
Rob wrote:
Fox News has almost as many viewers as MSNBC & CNN combined. Pretty sure Rush has like 10x the audience of Maddow. There's an entire right wing media empire out there, yet these "liberal media" arguments only get louder. It makes no sense. The argument is that the Liberal media/journalists are indoctrinating/influencing people. But in real life, the left doesn't seem to agree on anything, while Trump, a mostly insane man, is able to (credibly) cite polling that shows 85-90% of the GOP approves of him. It's almost as if their future depends on this argument still resonating.



FOX's size doesn't disprove the media being overwhelmingly liberal, it proves it. The reason FOX news is so much larger is because they are the only game in town. They have a monopoly on a very underserved audience. CNN has to compete with MSNBC, BBC, PBS, ABC, NBC, CBS and a host of soft news shows like Daily Show, not to mention other heavily liberal cable channels.

The "right wing media empire" is made up of a comparatively tiny number of outlets.

The right does dominate talk radio, for whatever that's worth, but that doesn't remotely make up the imbalance, and there is still NPR.


I wouldn't argue that the mainstream media doesn't have a liberal bias, but it should be noted that as the right drifts further right, the mainstream media will appear more liberal to them. That's the part of this equation that seems to be ignored. Is there a prime time lineup on any of the outlets you mentioned that is as far from "center" as Fox? Or AM radio? I just don't understand why the focus is always on the liberal side of things, when the "conservative" side of the media has succumbed to the Limbaughs & Hannitys of the world. Still a few good conservatives journalists or personalities out there, but fewer & fewer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most-listened-to_radio_programs

Looks to me like conservative radio does better than NPR, and as I said earlier, Fox is basically as big as CNN & MSNBC combined (see below).

And anyway, the larger point is that these days you don't have to listen to "liberal" media if you don't want to. Not sure why you brought up that the right has fewer outlets - that doesn't matter if the fewer outlets serve as many people. Liberals want variety, conservatives may not. I do think conservatives should focus less on this and more on its own media, considering it's already entered the "tolerate and sometimes promote conspiracy theories" phase. Probably won't happen though because of what's bolded in my original post. What would conservative media do with itself if it couldn't rail against the drive-bys all day?


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 Post subject: Re: On The Media: Where Do You Get Your News?
PostPosted: Fri June 12, 2020 3:04 pm 
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I don't think it's true that the right has moved more to the extreme than the left in the last thirty years. Most Clinton speeches on immigration from the nineties would get him cancelled today. Limbaugh has been around forever. He's been preaching the same things more or less.

Conservatives don't have to listen to liberal media (though it's not from lack of trying on the left's part), but that doesn't change the fact that most of the media is against them, and the perception is that the left can usually dominate the narrative with sheer numbers. And I don't think it's about variety. The media is made up mostly of liberals who are unwilling to cater to conservatives, so they leave the market open for FOX to dominate.

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 Post subject: Re: On The Media: Where Do You Get Your News?
PostPosted: Fri June 12, 2020 3:17 pm 
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BurtReynolds wrote:
the perception is that the left can usually dominate the narrative with sheer numbers.


But this is what I'm getting at. This is the narrative that seems to drive conservative media in the first place. This is what you hear everyone on the right say. It's pretty easy to see why this perception exists, even though over the last 30 years the conservative media has grown by gigantic proportions and created its own narrative. Anything else is just fake news, right?

One side (left) struggles to build a narrative that can be agreed on, and one side (right) is much more united in one. So yeah, the perception exists because it needs to exist. It is central to its existence.


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