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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Wed October 11, 2017 1:45 pm 
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McParadigm wrote:
Bi_3 wrote:
McParadigm wrote:
Bi_3 wrote:
B wrote:
Mike Ditka, "There has been no oppression in the last 100 years that I know of,” Ditka said. “Now maybe I’m not watching it as carefully as other people. I think the opportunity is there for everybody — race, religion, creed, color, nationality. If you want to work, if you want to try, if you want to put effort in, you can accomplish anything.”

Nothing bad has happened since 1917.

1917.


If more protests focused on Jim Crow, where there is indisputable evidence of of systemic and legally enforced racism against people who are walking on the streets today, IMO we would get a lot closer to a point where most people can empathize with the lasting effect of the history of black America.

This is the most depressing sentence I think I've ever read.


Sure, but do you agree or disagree?

I believe that the majority of white Americans who currently feel no or minimal empathy for people of any particular color are not now, or ever going to be, an argument, observation, or a strategy away from grasping at that basic human understanding.


When IS the appropriate time to talk about injustice?

“We have also come to this hallowed spot to remind America of the fierce urgency of Now. This is no time to engage in the luxury of cooling off or to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism. Now is the time to make real the promises of democracy.”

—from "I Have A Dream" speech in Washington, D.C., August 28, 1963


Last edited by Electromatic on Wed October 11, 2017 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Wed October 11, 2017 1:46 pm 
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Emmet Till would be right around Ditka's age if he was alive today but he was lynched in Chicago when he was fourteen. I think that goes against Ditka's myopic, and depressing statment.


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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Wed October 11, 2017 1:57 pm 
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McParadigm wrote:
Bi_3 wrote:
McParadigm wrote:
Bi_3 wrote:
B wrote:
Mike Ditka, "There has been no oppression in the last 100 years that I know of,” Ditka said. “Now maybe I’m not watching it as carefully as other people. I think the opportunity is there for everybody — race, religion, creed, color, nationality. If you want to work, if you want to try, if you want to put effort in, you can accomplish anything.”

Nothing bad has happened since 1917.

1917.


If more protests focused on Jim Crow, where there is indisputable evidence of of systemic and legally enforced racism against people who are walking on the streets today, IMO we would get a lot closer to a point where most people can empathize with the lasting effect of the history of black America.

This is the most depressing sentence I think I've ever read.


Sure, but do you agree or disagree?

I believe that the majority of white Americans who currently feel no or minimal empathy for people of any particular color are not now, or ever going to be, an argument, observation, or a strategy away from grasping at that basic human understanding.


I don't necessarily disagree with that, but I believe a lot of that is because there are easily used rationalizations that can be used to absolve oneself of having to think about it, stuff like "slavery was 150 years ago". You can't look a slave in the face. You can't look the child of a slave in the face. It's basically ancient history to modern minds. Jim Crow presents a different , more practical path to reach people because you can put those people on TV. You can show how those laws (for example shorting payments to black soldiers in 20th century wars) lead to outcomes in individuals that humans can relate to in today's society and opening that door to empathy via human connection is key. Don't try to solve it all at once. Don't blame. FFS sake don't break or burn anything. Just try to get people to understand that even though legal equality exists, it's not over for people you may see or talk to everyday.

Edit: Not telling activists how to act, just explaining an option for reaching people whose group I am member of.


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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Wed October 11, 2017 2:04 pm 
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Quote:
When IS the appropriate time to talk about injustice?

Surely the greatest win deep tissue conservatism ever had was ingraining America with language about "appropriate times" to talk about hard change...which then provides an eternal justification for not talking about it now.

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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Wed October 11, 2017 2:09 pm 
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McParadigm wrote:
Quote:
When IS the appropriate time to talk about injustice?

Surely the greatest win deep tissue conservatism ever had was ingraining America with language about "appropriate times" to talk about hard change...which then provides an eternal justification for not talking about it now.



Yep. Also, the only time to talk about injustices is when it is happening and/or directly after - otherwise there is no platform to have the conversation.


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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Wed October 11, 2017 2:23 pm 
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Bi_3 wrote:
McParadigm wrote:
Bi_3 wrote:
McParadigm wrote:
Bi_3 wrote:
B wrote:
Mike Ditka, "There has been no oppression in the last 100 years that I know of,” Ditka said. “Now maybe I’m not watching it as carefully as other people. I think the opportunity is there for everybody — race, religion, creed, color, nationality. If you want to work, if you want to try, if you want to put effort in, you can accomplish anything.”

Nothing bad has happened since 1917.

1917.


If more protests focused on Jim Crow, where there is indisputable evidence of of systemic and legally enforced racism against people who are walking on the streets today, IMO we would get a lot closer to a point where most people can empathize with the lasting effect of the history of black America.

This is the most depressing sentence I think I've ever read.


Sure, but do you agree or disagree?

I believe that the majority of white Americans who currently feel no or minimal empathy for people of any particular color are not now, or ever going to be, an argument, observation, or a strategy away from grasping at that basic human understanding.


I don't necessarily disagree with that, but I believe a lot of that is because there are easily used rationalizations that can be used to absolve oneself of having to think about it, stuff like "slavery was 150 years ago". You can't look a slave in the face. You can't look the child of a slave in the face. It's basically ancient history to modern minds. Jim Crow presents a different , more practical path to reach people because you can put those people on TV. You can show how those laws (for example shorting payments to black soldiers in 20th century wars) lead to outcomes in individuals that humans can relate to in today's society and opening that door to empathy via human connection is key. Don't try to solve it all at once. Don't blame. FFS sake don't break or burn anything. Just try to get people to understand that even though legal equality exists, it's not over for people you may see or talk to everyday.

Edit: Not telling activists how to act, just explaining an option for reaching people whose group I am member of.

The problem is that "you weren't a slave" is just one component of a series of simple, accepted dismissals that are not at heart about understanding or trying to, but are instead about preventing the other from having to hear. They are circular, endless waves of thoroughly uninterested hands in the air.

In South Dakota, it went like this:

Tribal peoples: (protest something)

White people: I get that they are unhappy, but I mean...you never hunted buffalo. You have air conditioning. Maybe if they weren't going on about events from their great grandfather's time...

Man from East River: When I was 8, white men in pickups came into town. They were drunk. They beat my father until he stopped moving. He died three days later. They tried to hurt my mother but she got away, so they cut my cheek here. They gave me this scar. The cops never even asked for a description.

White people: Gosh that's so sad. I can really sympathize...I mean, a child's pain and all. And those men should be in prison. But my dad worked himself to death on the farm, and died dirt poor. We all struggle. You can't let that define you.

Tribal peoples: This isnt just about those men. Or even just about those cops. It's about traumatic, institutionalize abuse. No one stands up to acknowledge it.

White people: Hey I'm right here with you. Gee it's like you don't appreciate my support. You know, being ungrateful hurts your cause...

Tribal peoples: We need real change, for our children's sake, not-

White people: You want change? Stop drinking. Get off the reservation. Get a better job and send the kids to college. Your circumstances are not my fault.

Tribal peoples: This is not about assigning blame. This is about understanding a suppression that lasted lifetimes. "Sending our kids off to" white people schools is still a painful memory-

White people: Oh lord. Maybe if they weren't going on about events from their great grandfather's time... (repeat forever)

It's just a strategy that allows you to dismiss other people's truths without ever having to feel bad about yourself because you are, in fact, brutally dismissive.


Edited a lot bc I wrote in a hurry on the bus

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Last edited by McParadigm on Wed October 11, 2017 2:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Wed October 11, 2017 2:30 pm 
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I understand the want to find an argument that will resonate, which I feel is your point. I just don't believe that arguments are ever more powerful than existing bias. It's why we're still cleansing ourselves of racial and gender discrimination 50+ years after the era we half-consider the modern enlightenment of equal society.

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Last edited by McParadigm on Wed October 11, 2017 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Wed October 11, 2017 2:35 pm 
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Speaking of the oppression of Native Americans - Anyone read the 'The Killers of the Flower Moon?' Good god, it's hard to find something that bone chilling and depressing.


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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Wed October 11, 2017 3:20 pm 
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McParadigm wrote:
I understand the want to find an argument that will resonate, which I feel is your point. I just don't believe that arguments are ever more powerful than existing bias. It's why we're still cleansing ourselves of racial and gender discrimination 50+ years after the era we half-consider the modern enlightenment of equal society.


Yeah, that was where I was going with that. If today's method has lead us to a Trump presidency, maybe it's time to reconsider the approach. And so there is no confusion, I disagree with Colin K. on most of his statements in this matter, but he and all the other players who 'take a knee' have every right to do so. The owners have every right to fire for doing it, but the peaceful protests like that are a far more effective way to start the long overdue dialogue on 'how do we make America work for everyone?'.

But I actually don't agree on your biases statement. It's certainly hard to overcome them, but for example if you look at religion in America, especially in our generation, you can see how people were able to recognize the good and bad elements of the various faiths adapt even when most of us were raised with parents who went to church. It's not universal of course, but it's a start.


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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Wed October 11, 2017 3:51 pm 
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Bi_3 wrote:
McParadigm wrote:
I understand the want to find an argument that will resonate, which I feel is your point. I just don't believe that arguments are ever more powerful than existing bias. It's why we're still cleansing ourselves of racial and gender discrimination 50+ years after the era we half-consider the modern enlightenment of equal society.


Yeah, that was where I was going with that. If today's method has lead us to a Trump presidency, maybe it's time to reconsider the approach. And so there is no confusion, I disagree with Colin K. on most of his statements in this matter, but he and all the other players who 'take a knee' have every right to do so. The owners have every right to fire for doing it, but the peaceful protests like that are a far more effective way to start the long overdue dialogue on 'how do we make America work for everyone?'.

But I actually don't agree on your biases statement. It's certainly hard to overcome them, but for example if you look at religion in America, especially in our generation, you can see how people were able to recognize the good and bad elements of the various faiths adapt even when most of us were raised with parents who went to church. It's not universal of course, but it's a start.


I'm not sure about the take on religion. I don't see it.


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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Wed October 11, 2017 11:36 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Thu October 12, 2017 2:19 am 
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Wait, people have ACTUALLY stopped watching the NFL? My god people are stupid.


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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Thu October 12, 2017 2:26 am 
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maybe now the blacks will start to play soccer

much better for CTE too


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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Fri October 13, 2017 3:22 am 
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philpritchard wrote:
Wait, people have ACTUALLY stopped watching the NFL? My god people are stupid.


I thought it was difficult to differentiate between cord-cutters and those that are boycotting. I find it hard to believe that many people are boycotting.


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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Fri October 13, 2017 3:30 am 
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At what point is a boycott just choosing not to watch something they don't like anymore?

Anyway, a recent poll suggested it is because of the kneeling thing. They denied it for awhile and said it was for other reasons, but have given up on that narrative. ESPN's clear bias isn't helping.

ratings are down 7%-12% off last year, which was 9% off the year before. Ticket sales are off too.

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Last edited by BurtReynolds on Fri October 13, 2017 3:34 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Fri October 13, 2017 3:33 am 
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Maybe the police should just stop murdering black people and then everyone can watch football again.


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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Fri October 13, 2017 5:05 am 
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cutuphalfdead wrote:
Maybe the police should just stop murdering* black people and then everyone can watch football again.


*citation needed

Are African Americans killed at levels beyond their share of felonious crime?
I think I saw figures comparing crime in general, but felonious crime seems to be a more appropriate metric.


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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Fri October 13, 2017 6:48 am 
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I'm sorry, but the argument that people who aren't swayed by slavery will find themselves magically empathetic to the Jim Crow era seems inherently ridiculous to me. If anything our inability to get past even overt racism in an age when we are starting to think of hyperloops and space tourism is kind of a stunning indictment of our species.


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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Fri October 13, 2017 9:19 am 
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I find it absolutely crazy that the national anthem is played every single game.

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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Fri October 13, 2017 12:16 pm 
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Orpheus wrote:
I'm sorry, but the argument that people who aren't swayed by slavery will find themselves magically empathetic to the Jim Crow era seems inherently ridiculous to me. If anything our inability to get past even overt racism in an age when we are starting to think of hyperloops and space tourism is kind of a stunning indictment of our species.


There is little overt racism left operating now, just it's painful legacy and the population of those who won't let go of the idea that their skin color, not their actions, should entitle them to something.

The point about Jim Crow vs. slavery is about leveraging a person's ability to empathize, not about about the gravity of the terror each inflicted. There is a great bit in a recent Sam Harris podcast where he is talking with a German philosopher, and the gentleman brings up how he first learned about the holocaust and the behaviors of the average German while it was happening vs. what his parents told him about it, to sum it up it was "it wasn't us, we didn't know". But they knew, everyone knew, they just lied to themselves that it wasn't their issue. The German gentleman said it transformed his whole perspective on his country, it's history, and how we should treat other people. I think that same process could work here. If we could show it was our grandparents and great-grandparents that did this, and we do that by showing the living human face of that tragic time, the effect would be powerful.

I fully realize I'm about to lose you here, but I suspect your perspective is very different than most given that you have dedicated much of your life to helping others vs. just going through existence. You are immersed in the effects of various forms of oppression, most are not. The other part is that slavery was a very long time ago and civilization level change is still on a pretty steep upward slope. Someone born in the 21st century might look at slavery like they would look at the colonial Williamsburg, an unrelatable relic of human history from past with little bearing on today that might appear on the mid-term. So what I was saying is that while we still have living humans that went through Jim Crow on both sides, some of whom you and I may interact with regularly, I feel we need to get them to tell their stories so that they we can maintain some level of empathy before the connection is lost forever. The far more extreme stance that Colin K. is taking off the field is not going to do that.


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