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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Fri October 13, 2017 12:29 pm 
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Bi_3 wrote:
Orpheus wrote:
I'm sorry, but the argument that people who aren't swayed by slavery will find themselves magically empathetic to the Jim Crow era seems inherently ridiculous to me. If anything our inability to get past even overt racism in an age when we are starting to think of hyperloops and space tourism is kind of a stunning indictment of our species.


There is little overt racism left operating now, just it's painful legacy and the population of those who won't let go of the idea that their skin color, not their actions, should entitle them to something.

The point about Jim Crow vs. slavery is about leveraging a person's ability to empathize, not about about the gravity of the terror each inflicted. There is a great bit in a recent Sam Harris podcast where he is talking with a German philosopher, and the gentleman brings up how he first learned about the holocaust and the behaviors of the average German while it was happening vs. what his parents told him about it, to sum it up it was "it wasn't us, we didn't know". But they knew, everyone knew, they just lied to themselves that it wasn't their issue. The German gentleman said it transformed his whole perspective on his country, it's history, and how we should treat other people. I think that same process could work here. If we could show it was our grandparents and great-grandparents that did this, and we do that by showing the living human face of that tragic time, the effect would be powerful.

I fully realize I'm about to lose you here, but I suspect your perspective is very different than most given that you have dedicated much of your life to helping others vs. just going through existence. You are immersed in the effects of various forms of oppression, most are not. The other part is that slavery was a very long time ago and civilization level change is still on a pretty steep upward slope. Someone born in the 21st century might look at slavery like they would look at the colonial Williamsburg, an unrelatable relic of human history from past with little bearing on today that might appear on the mid-term. So what I was saying is that while we still have living humans that went through Jim Crow on both sides, some of whom you and I may interact with regularly, I feel we need to get them to tell their stories so that they we can maintain some level of empathy before the connection is lost forever. The far more extreme stance that Colin K. is taking off the field is not going to do that.



Good god. No. That first sentence. :thumbsdown:

It's difficult for me to process your reaction to a podcast with a random German dude when you start out with there is little overt racism now. Also what is extreme with Colin's protest? It's a super peaceful form of civil disobedience that is inherently not extreme.


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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Fri October 13, 2017 12:52 pm 
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I think there's just something about people's racial prejudices in this country that makes it an insoluble issue, and one that I don't think will really respond to what Bi_3 is prescribing. As an example, look at how conservative feelings on a topic like gay marriage have changed in the last 12-13 years. About 41% of conservatives support gay marriage today, whereas 13 years ago a presidential campaign successfully used the issue as a political cudgel for conservatives. Support among conservatives for gay marriage was at about 14% in the aftermath of that election, indicating a 17% bump in the past 13 years; it's quite a statistic for an increasingly polarized country. Many think that familiarity bred comfort; the increased number of openly gay individuals in the public sphere and in the lives of Americans of all ideologies meant comfort with the notion of gay marriage. Continued awareness of the issue and people involved brought a gradual but pronounced change of mind and heart.

Now, let's consider the police brutality and misconduct people like Colin K. are speaking out against. Granted, it hasn't been 13 years, but we're more than three years past Ferguson. I've honestly lost count of the number of social media videos we've seen showing the death of oft-unarmed black men. Polls don't seem to indicate there is much change at all, and if anything those divides seem more vast (they certainly seem to in our public discourse). It seems that this issue is immune to clarity, despite the frequency of these videos practically demanding increased awareness, in a way that does not exist for other issues. Increased education and awareness is not fixing it.


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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Fri October 13, 2017 1:56 pm 
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digster wrote:
I think there's just something about people's racial prejudices in this country that makes it an insoluble issue, and one that I don't think will really respond to what Bi_3 is prescribing. As an example, look at how conservative feelings on a topic like gay marriage have changed in the last 12-13 years. About 41% of conservatives support gay marriage today, whereas 13 years ago a presidential campaign successfully used the issue as a political cudgel for conservatives. Support among conservatives for gay marriage was at about 14% in the aftermath of that election, indicating a 17% bump in the past 13 years; it's quite a statistic for an increasingly polarized country. Many think that familiarity bred comfort; the increased number of openly gay individuals in the public sphere and in the lives of Americans of all ideologies meant comfort with the notion of gay marriage. Continued awareness of the issue and people involved brought a gradual but pronounced change of mind and heart.


That's kinda exactly what I am talking about. By changing the perception of homosexuals from some abstract immoral thing to their family, friend, coworker, or neighbor, it increased people's recognition of their humanity and thus recognition of their right to equality. Awareness of and interaction with individuals whose lived experience has been impacted by that oppression was key. As time moves on we will lose that with the actual victims of government directed racism.

digster wrote:
Now, let's consider the police brutality and misconduct people like Colin K. are speaking out against. Granted, it hasn't been 13 years, but we're more than three years past Ferguson. I've honestly lost count of the number of social media videos we've seen showing the death of oft-unarmed black men. Polls don't seem to indicate there is much change at all, and if anything those divides seem more vast (they certainly seem to in our public discourse). It seems that this issue is immune to clarity, despite the frequency of these videos practically demanding increased awareness, in a way that does not exist for other issues. Increased education and awareness is not fixing it.


The sudden pervasiveness of videos showing police violence is not evidence of an increase in police violence nor is it evidence that racism is driving the actions of police, it just means we all carry recording devices with us all time and we can all see these events that were once hidden. There are just as many videos of police mistreatment of other races and genders. And as I stated repeatedly in this thread, I have no issue with what he is doing on the field. I specifically said I support his right to do that. It's his off the field stuff (remember him equating cops to slave catchers a few months back?) that I think does a disservice to the cause because it illustrates a non-objective approach to the issue. There is a powerful difference between saying "we need to talk about police violence" and wearing pig-themed socks.


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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Fri October 13, 2017 3:12 pm 
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Bi_3 wrote:
digster wrote:
I think there's just something about people's racial prejudices in this country that makes it an insoluble issue, and one that I don't think will really respond to what Bi_3 is prescribing. As an example, look at how conservative feelings on a topic like gay marriage have changed in the last 12-13 years. About 41% of conservatives support gay marriage today, whereas 13 years ago a presidential campaign successfully used the issue as a political cudgel for conservatives. Support among conservatives for gay marriage was at about 14% in the aftermath of that election, indicating a 17% bump in the past 13 years; it's quite a statistic for an increasingly polarized country. Many think that familiarity bred comfort; the increased number of openly gay individuals in the public sphere and in the lives of Americans of all ideologies meant comfort with the notion of gay marriage. Continued awareness of the issue and people involved brought a gradual but pronounced change of mind and heart.


That's kinda exactly what I am talking about. By changing the perception of homosexuals from some abstract immoral thing to their family, friend, coworker, or neighbor, it increased people's recognition of their humanity and thus recognition of their right to equality. Awareness of and interaction with individuals whose lived experience has been impacted by that oppression was key. As time moves on we will lose that with the actual victims of government directed racism.

digster wrote:
Now, let's consider the police brutality and misconduct people like Colin K. are speaking out against. Granted, it hasn't been 13 years, but we're more than three years past Ferguson. I've honestly lost count of the number of social media videos we've seen showing the death of oft-unarmed black men. Polls don't seem to indicate there is much change at all, and if anything those divides seem more vast (they certainly seem to in our public discourse). It seems that this issue is immune to clarity, despite the frequency of these videos practically demanding increased awareness, in a way that does not exist for other issues. Increased education and awareness is not fixing it.


The sudden pervasiveness of videos showing police violence is not evidence of an increase in police violence nor is it evidence that racism is driving the actions of police, it just means we all carry recording devices with us all time and we can all see these events that were once hidden. There are just as many videos of police mistreatment of other races and genders. And as I stated repeatedly in this thread, I have no issue with what he is doing on the field. I specifically said I support his right to do that. It's his off the field stuff (remember him equating cops to slave catchers a few months back?) that I think does a disservice to the cause because it illustrates a non-objective approach to the issue. There is a powerful difference between saying "we need to talk about police violence" and wearing pig-themed socks.



So visual evidence isn't enough evidence? Solid. Dismissive. The mistreatment of other races and genders proves the issue as well.

I got you on the other stuff Kap has said but completely disagree on everything else. I thought you were saying kneeling was extreme and I was all wait what the hell?


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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Fri October 13, 2017 6:40 pm 
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jwfocker wrote:

I thought you were saying kneeling was extreme and I was all wait what the hell?


IMO, kneeling is actually a respectful way to address it. He's not turning his back on anything or staying off the field, he's using his posture in a symbolic way to say "I don't feel the country is working for people I care about and I need you to listen". That's a good thing. Team owners and fans are free to do what they want in response, but the act of "taking a knee" seems like about the best option for the players that feel strongly about the issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Fri October 13, 2017 6:52 pm 
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Bi_3 wrote:
That's kinda exactly what I am talking about. By changing the perception of homosexuals from some abstract immoral thing to their family, friend, coworker, or neighbor, it increased people's recognition of their humanity and thus recognition of their right to equality. Awareness of and interaction with individuals whose lived experience has been impacted by that oppression was key. As time moves on we will lose that with the actual victims of government directed racism.


Right, and I'm saying that this is not occurring with the issue of police misconduct in particular and issues concerning racial segregation, discrimination in general. There's certainly been no shortage of "victims" in recent years alone when only referring to police misconduct and the death of unarmed black men at the hands of police. However, for many, these victims are not usually perceived as such at all. My larger point is not that I disagree with what you're saying entirely (proximity and familiarity breeds political acceptance and change), but that that is not occurring in regards to race.


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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Sun October 15, 2017 3:39 am 
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Bi_3 wrote:
jwfocker wrote:

I thought you were saying kneeling was extreme and I was all wait what the hell?


IMO, kneeling is actually a respectful way to address it. He's not turning his back on anything or staying off the field, he's using his posture in a symbolic way to say "I don't feel the country is working for people I care about and I need you to listen". That's a good thing. Team owners and fans are free to do what they want in response, but the act of "taking a knee" seems like about the best option for the players that feel strongly about the issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Sun October 15, 2017 4:51 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Fri October 20, 2017 11:52 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Fri October 20, 2017 11:56 pm 
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It's been almost a week, that asshole's had to have been ID'd or given an interview by now.

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 Post subject: Professional Athletes vs Nazis: The Gulf of a Nation
PostPosted: Sat October 21, 2017 1:29 am 
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We take a look at the sometimes painfully, obvious dichotomy resting in the heart of America.

Kneeling was only the first step.

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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs Nazis: The Gulf of a Nation
PostPosted: Sat October 21, 2017 1:39 am 
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Is this the working title of Ghost Man VII?

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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs Nazis: The Gulf of a Nation
PostPosted: Mon October 23, 2017 10:20 pm 
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What's Ghost Man? And are there really 7 of them?


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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs Nazis: The Gulf of a Nation
PostPosted: Mon October 23, 2017 10:33 pm 
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durdencommatyler wrote:
What's Ghost Man? And are there really 7 of them?

You don't want to know. But chud's anti-shitpost post from a few minutes ago is wildly suspect.


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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Tue October 24, 2017 1:22 am 
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My thread title was better and more accurate.

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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Wed November 01, 2017 5:47 pm 
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Won't somebody please think about poor Papa John?

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2125 ... m-protests

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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Wed November 01, 2017 6:33 pm 
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Simple Torture wrote:
Won't somebody please think about poor Papa John?

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2125 ... m-protests

cool "snip"pet

Spoiler: show
How ya' feeling, buddy?

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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Wed November 01, 2017 7:05 pm 
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Simple Torture wrote:
Won't somebody please think about poor Papa John?

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2125 ... m-protests



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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Wed November 01, 2017 7:05 pm 
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E.H. Ruddock wrote:
Simple Torture wrote:
Won't somebody please think about poor Papa John?

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2125 ... m-protests

cool "snip"pet

Spoiler: show
How ya' feeling, buddy?


We're still in the triage room JFC. But overall we are fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Professional Athletes vs. America
PostPosted: Wed November 01, 2017 7:29 pm 
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God that papa john guy annoys me, and their pizza sucks.

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