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 Post subject: Re: Israel & Palestine
PostPosted: Mon December 04, 2023 3:48 pm 
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E.H. Ruddock wrote:
Fattie_Vedder wrote:
Now, with the help of Western media and governments, they are weaponizing the war crimes of Hamas


Well written post, I agree with a lot of it but you seem to gloss over most of October 7 in your post and this line in particular is a little misdirected I think. Hamas weaponized their war crimes when they committed war crimes. And while the reports of beheading babies, etc. may or may not be true, Hamas kidnapped and killed small children as well on October 7.

My next comment is on society in general, not your post, your position, or any of our positions on here. It is hard to envision any country suffering an attack such as 10/7, 9/11, etc. that wouldn't respond with military force/violence. This doesn't justify the oppression that the people that committed those acts they suffered or perceive, but it is where we are as a society. It would be interesting (from a psychological standpoint, none of this is "interesting") to know what Hamas leaders were thinking when planning this attack. Did they think ahead to what Israel's reaction would be? If so, they had to know the coming additional suffering they were creating in Gaza.

By the way, within Israel, there obviously needs to be strong and harsh repercussions for the fact that they apparently knew a year ago that something like this was being planned. There won't be, but Israelis need to demand much, much more accountability from their government on this particular incident.


I think it was a given the day the Hamas attack happened, that Israel would need to take Gaza. Obviously Israel wants as few Israeli soldiers to die as possible, and need to ensure their goals are successful. Still not enough care has gone into protecting civilian life.


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 Post subject: Re: Israel & Palestine
PostPosted: Mon December 04, 2023 5:44 pm 
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Anders wrote:
I think it was a given the day the Hamas attack happened, that Israel would need to take Gaza. Obviously Israel wants as few Israeli soldiers to die as possible, and need to ensure their goals are successful. Still not enough care has gone into protecting civilian life.

This might be the most cleanly neutral summary of the situation I’ve yet seen.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel & Palestine
PostPosted: Mon December 04, 2023 8:15 pm 
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You know it's bad when Morning Joe calls out a proggle.


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 Post subject: Re: Israel & Palestine
PostPosted: Mon December 04, 2023 9:43 pm 
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Has hamas done any attacking or any kind of offense since Oct 7?

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 Post subject: Re: Israel & Palestine
PostPosted: Mon December 04, 2023 9:57 pm 
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knee tunes wrote:
Has hamas done any attacking or any kind of offense since Oct 7?


Over 8,000 rockets have been fired from Gaza since the 07.Oct massacre was committed. 11,000 if you count the rockets fired on 07.Oct

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 Post subject: Re: Israel & Palestine
PostPosted: Mon December 04, 2023 10:26 pm 
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Wtf happened in here


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 Post subject: Re: Israel & Palestine
PostPosted: Mon December 04, 2023 10:44 pm 
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Bi_3 wrote:
knee tunes wrote:
Has hamas done any attacking or any kind of offense since Oct 7?


Over 8,000 rockets have been fired from Gaza since the 07.Oct massacre was committed. 11,000 if you count the rockets fired on 07.Oct



How many have landed and what’s the fatality count?


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 Post subject: Re: Israel & Palestine
PostPosted: Mon December 04, 2023 11:00 pm 
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dimejinky99 wrote:
Bi_3 wrote:
knee tunes wrote:
Has hamas done any attacking or any kind of offense since Oct 7?


Over 8,000 rockets have been fired from Gaza since the 07.Oct massacre was committed. 11,000 if you count the rockets fired on 07.Oct



How many have landed and what’s the fatality count?


Not what was asked

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 Post subject: Re: Israel & Palestine
PostPosted: Tue December 05, 2023 2:57 am 
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Bi_3 wrote:
You know it's bad when Morning Joe calls out a proggle.



indeed, Jews should not vote for Chuck Schumer because clearly he will lead the Democratic party to adopt this view as well

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 Post subject: Re: Israel & Palestine
PostPosted: Tue December 05, 2023 11:24 pm 
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Bi_3 wrote:
dimejinky99 wrote:
Bi_3 wrote:
knee tunes wrote:
Has hamas done any attacking or any kind of offense since Oct 7?


Over 8,000 rockets have been fired from Gaza since the 07.Oct massacre was committed. 11,000 if you count the rockets fired on 07.Oct



How many have landed and what’s the fatality count?


Not what was asked




I was asking you.
Answer is none. But we know that.


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 Post subject: Re: Israel & Palestine
PostPosted: Wed December 06, 2023 12:15 am 
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Only good news is the US seems serious about banning settlers from ever entering the states again. How that’s going to work when majority of settlers moving to Palestine and illegally taking peoples homes, are from the US.



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 Post subject: Re: Israel & Palestine
PostPosted: Wed December 06, 2023 12:20 am 
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dimejinky99 wrote:
Bi_3 wrote:
dimejinky99 wrote:
Bi_3 wrote:
knee tunes wrote:
Has hamas done any attacking or any kind of offense since Oct 7?


Over 8,000 rockets have been fired from Gaza since the 07.Oct massacre was committed. 11,000 if you count the rockets fired on 07.Oct



How many have landed and what’s the fatality count?


Not what was asked




I was asking you.
Answer is none. But we know that.


Hamas took out plenty of people in that hospital’s parking lot, but why does it matter if they were successful or not? Failure to succeed at mass murder doesnt erase the attempts

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 Post subject: Re: Israel & Palestine
PostPosted: Wed December 06, 2023 6:33 pm 
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https://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/i/4op07a/rapport-fra-soer-gaza-israel-dreper-vanlige-mennesker-selv-fiender-av-hamas

It’s in Norwegian, but can be translated. It says that Israel’s bombing, is even killing the enemies of Hamas.


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 Post subject: Re: Israel & Palestine
PostPosted: Thu December 07, 2023 1:51 am 
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Israeli settler violence brings destruction and fear to West Bank as war rages

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67617920


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 Post subject: Re: Israel & Palestine
PostPosted: Thu December 07, 2023 4:12 pm 
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Our former president telling the truth.



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 Post subject: Re: Israel & Palestine
PostPosted: Fri December 08, 2023 5:44 am 
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E.H. Ruddock wrote:
Fattie_Vedder wrote:
Now, with the help of Western media and governments, they are weaponizing the war crimes of Hamas


Well written post, I agree with a lot of it but you seem to gloss over most of October 7 in your post and this line in particular is a little misdirected I think. Hamas weaponized their war crimes when they committed war crimes. And while the reports of beheading babies, etc. may or may not be true, Hamas kidnapped and killed small children as well on October 7.

My next comment is on society in general, not your post, your position, or any of our positions on here. It is hard to envision any country suffering an attack such as 10/7, 9/11, etc. that wouldn't respond with military force/violence. This doesn't justify the oppression that the people that committed those acts they suffered or perceive, but it is where we are as a society. It would be interesting (from a psychological standpoint, none of this is "interesting") to know what Hamas leaders were thinking when planning this attack. Did they think ahead to what Israel's reaction would be? If so, they had to know the coming additional suffering they were creating in Gaza.

By the way, within Israel, there obviously needs to be strong and harsh repercussions for the fact that they apparently knew a year ago that something like this was being planned. There won't be, but Israelis need to demand much, much more accountability from their government on this particular incident.



Thank you for the thoughtful comment. I did not intend to gloss over the fact that Hamas committed the atrocities on October 7. I called out those acts for what they are; atrocities. I respectfully disagree, political leaders with the help of most major western media manipulated peoples' pain and suffering and anger and turned it into bloodlust to support the genocide that is currently happening, which has a political aim: to rid Gaza of all Palestinians once and for all and find a permanent solution to their demands for an independent state. Israeli officials spread lies about the types of atrocities Hamas committed and the media did not question it or verify it. That obviously does not mean that killing innocent civilians is excusable. But raping them (jury's still out; none of the claims verified yet) and beheading little babies (proven false**) are acts so vile, they fuel hatred and make it easier to justifying atrocities in response. This reminds me so much of 9/11, the blind hatred and desire for revenge that allowed for lies about WMDs in Iraq to perpetuate and justify a war that in the end resulted in 1 million dead Iraqis. After October 7, Israel has been committing atrocities far worse than those that Hamas committed on October 7.

I also intended to call out the horrendous double standard and that trying to "solve" this militarily will not work; it will only lead to more bloodshed in the future. The double standard is that Israel has committed dozens of atrocities similar to what Hamas did on October 7 against Palestinians in the past, but it hardly gets coverage in U.S. media, or if it does, it's mis-portrayed. You may have heard the term "mowing the lawn", which is the adorable name that Israeli military officials give to the act of thinning out Gaza's population with occasional bombings, or by putting them "on a diet", meaning starving the population for a brief time by preventing food from entering Gaza if the population got too unruly. When was the last time anyone was up in arms about that? Does that justify a Hamas response like Israel is doing now? That's not to say anything of the West Bank where there is no Hamas, but daily violence and harassment against Palestinians there, occasional raids in the night to kidnap children from their parents. Defense for Children International - Palestine has reported that the IDF detain, prosecute, and imprison 500-700 children between 12-17 years old each year. Israel has currently detained a total of 7,200 Palestinians, 80% without charge or trial. These are not prisoners; they are hostages. There' a whole other can of worms that we could open here, maybe better served in a separate post, about when and what type of violent resistance would be acceptable. Would it be acceptable if Hamas targeted only military individuals and not civilians? What if the situation was reversed: what if Gaza held 2.3 million Jewish people and was besieged by a brutal Arab regime that controlled who and what went in and out of Gaza, occasionally starved and bombed them to reduce their numbers? Would that Jewish population have a right to violently resist their occupiers? By the way, Amira Hass, an Israeli writer for the Haaretz, who absolutely detests everything about Hamas (with good reason), has described Gaza as a concentration camp.

You ask a good question about what was Hamas thinking when they did this. I'm not sure I have the right answer, but I think one has to look at the worsening conditions in Gaza (prior to October 7) and the broader geopolitical context and timing. I'm sure Hamas expected a response, but my guess is that they probably thought the response would be similar to what they've seen in the past. I doubt they expected a full blown genocidal operation. This seems like a final, desperate attempt to disrupt Israel (and "the West's") plans for a new middle east that meant having no Palestinian state. We could write a thesis about this, but to keep it short: this is about gas and Russia too. The U.K. Germany, France, and other Nato countries are desperately looking for a means to be independent of Russian oil and gas. There were (are) plans to build a gas line along the "New Silk Road", through several of the gulf Arab countries (Qatar was about to sign a deal with some of these European countries), all the way to Gaza where a few major gas wells have been found off the shores of Gaza. Normalization with Saudi and UAE is crucial for this plan. It's important to note that shortly before October 7, Netanyahu held up a map of Israel at the U.N., with no Palestine anywhere on it (literally wiped off the map), and said this will be the "new middle east" with plans for the "New Silk Road". Knowing that Israel of course is not going to allow Palestinians to form a state in Gaza or have access to the offshore gas and oil reserves to benefit their economy, Hamas tried to thwart the plans and force the Palestinian issue back on the table. It puts particular pressure on Saudi, which cannot be seen normalizing relations with Israel when the world is watching Gaza get carpet bombed.

Or maybe desperation and hopelessness makes a great recruiting tool for Hamas. Maybe they just have nothing to live for. Born in a concentration camp, dying in a concentration camp, no future, no hope, and they would rather die fighting rather than suffer and die slowly.

I don't know. But I might feel that way if I happened to be born in Gaza.

** Re. dead babies: Israeli officials retracted that statement and the count shows that 1 baby was killed, likely in crossfire, while Hamas killed 34 people under the age of 18. I had the source saved (I believe it was Haaretz); I'll double check.


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 Post subject: Re: Israel & Palestine
PostPosted: Fri December 08, 2023 6:26 am 
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Anders wrote:
The BBC is under constant criticism in Israel for its pro-Palestinian coverage, they have even refused to call Hamas terrorists.

I look forward to seeing more of your Palestinian sources here. Although like you pointed out, I have found there to be a lot of unreputable sources out there.

If you quote a mainstream media, I at least would believe that the likelihood of something being true, is higher. I also get a lot of my news from Norwegian sources, and consider those mostly with little bias, and if any, it’s usually pro-Palestinian.


I appreciate that, Anders. Here are a few sources:

@972mag - I think I mentioned +972 Magazine before. One of the best sources for information and analysis. They are an independent, online, nonprofit magazine founded and run by both Israeli and Palestinian journalists.

@theimeu - The IMEU (Institute of Middle East Understanding) is a non-profit organization based out of New York providing coverage of all things Palestine (politics, culture, art, and activism)

@nouraerakat - Noura Erakat is absolutely brilliant. Palestinian-American Humans Rights lawyer and professor at Rutgers, also author of Justice For Some

@btselem - Israeli human rights organization

@jewishvoiceforpeace - Jewish Voice for Peace

@motaz_azaiza - Motaz Azaiza is one of the key journalists in Gaza, and an unbelievable human being.

@mohammedelkurd - Mohammed El Kurd is a brilliant writer and analyst writes out of Jerusalem

@wizard_bisan1 - Bisan is a filmmaker who's sharing first hand accounts of what's happening in Gaza


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 Post subject: Re: Israel & Palestine
PostPosted: Fri December 08, 2023 9:19 am 
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The UN are finally about to do something useful





Last edited by dimejinky99 on Fri December 08, 2023 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel & Palestine
PostPosted: Fri December 08, 2023 9:29 am 
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Ethnic cleansing. Genocide.



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 Post subject: Re: Israel & Palestine
PostPosted: Sat December 09, 2023 2:31 am 
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And fuck that.

Americans wonder why they’re loathed in some places

This is why



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