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 Post subject: Re: Anybody want a Corona?
PostPosted: Thu September 17, 2020 3:58 am 
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Seriously, the more I dwell on the entire way Trump's dealt (or more so, not dealt) with the coronavirus in the US the more I think he should be tried/impeached/shot by firing squad for absolute dereliction of duty. That he's pushed the whole thing from the outset as a political game to be played is a total disgrace.

Science doesn't know. People's position on masks is dependent on their political leanings. Punishing blue states by withholding PPE. Not ensuring there was sufficient PPE from the outset. Slow the testing down, please. Don't want to cause panic. In person rallies during covid times. It'll just disappear. Doing absolutely nothing to help the people you are meant to protect. No financial support for you.

Man it makes me angry.

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 Post subject: Re: Anybody want a Corona?
PostPosted: Thu September 17, 2020 4:02 am 
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The thing about american politics is if you just shut off the federal bullshit noise streams you realize that most of the very important decisions are being made at the state and local level. I can't complain too much about how IL has handled this and even though Trump of course has a negative impact most of the time it's just like a toddler screaming at the supermarket. Maybe it's harder in states with mini trump wannabes like Florida? But my advice to people is to not have their scope be so broad.


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 Post subject: Re: Anybody want a Corona?
PostPosted: Thu September 17, 2020 4:03 am 
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It's kind of like social media. It makes no sense. Humans weren't supposed to know or care much about what is going on outside of their local tribe. At least first and foremost.


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 Post subject: Re: Anybody want a Corona?
PostPosted: Thu September 17, 2020 4:24 am 
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I get what you are saying and agree. For certain this is something that had to be dealt with on a micro-level by local leaders.

Trump's job was to lead and provide support and ensure that the states (all of them) had the resources and support they needed to do what they needed to do. He was meant to be a cheerleader and a facilitator. He could have allowed the experts to do their thing and just sit there and wear his MAGA mask. But he couldn't - he had to make it political every step of the way.

Many other world leaders did just that - they led. Those countries still had major problems and cases and death but they managed it and continue to do so. The better performing countries did so by acting on a micro level with federal support on a bi-partisan basis. Oh yeah, and most importantly, they provided real and ongoing economic support to their people.

All Trump has done is get in the way, fart out conspiracy and karen-esque essential-oil-injection level bullshit, and stir up as much division as he could. But he did stop travel from Chyna (well, Wuhan at least) back in February. What a guy.

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 Post subject: Re: Anybody want a Corona?
PostPosted: Thu September 17, 2020 4:33 am 
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Our collective brain as a country has been broken way before covid. Everything Trump has done in his mishandling of this situation has sadly been predictable. I actually am having a hard time thinking of something that would have been more predictable. What we really need is something to bring us back together as a country. Maybe we can bring Freedom Fries back?


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 Post subject: Re: Anybody want a Corona?
PostPosted: Thu September 17, 2020 4:37 am 
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I understand the point that the U.S. needs to be considered in a different context than many other countries lacking our size and style of government....but it's the President of the United States. In addition to running HHS and CDC and numerous other agencies tasked with responding to a crisis like this, it's an office that grants its occupant the largest and loudest mouthpiece on the planet. I just don't really get the argument that it doesn't matter that that occupant is Donald Trump as opposed to some other guy. Of course it's going to have an impact. And it's been a bad one.

I'm not trying to say that verb is positing this, but it seems like sometimes people talk about Trump like he's the Queen, a mostly powerless and symbolic figurehead. That's not the president.


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 Post subject: Re: Anybody want a Corona?
PostPosted: Thu September 17, 2020 4:40 am 
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It has an impact. But it's outsized. When he said something stupid about building the wall did it really matter at the end of the day when on the border there is...no wall? We get pounded with stuff by the media that isn't even meat and potatoes type stuff at the end of the day.


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 Post subject: Re: Anybody want a Corona?
PostPosted: Thu September 17, 2020 4:56 am 
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digster wrote:
I understand the point that the U.S. needs to be considered in a different context than many other countries lacking our size and style of government....but it's the President of the United States. In addition to running HHS and CDC and numerous other agencies tasked with responding to a crisis like this, it's an office that grants its occupant the largest and loudest mouthpiece on the planet. I just don't really get the argument that it doesn't matter that that occupant is Donald Trump as opposed to some other guy. Of course it's going to have an impact. And it's been a bad one.

I'm not trying to say that verb is positing this, but it seems like sometimes people talk about Trump like he's the Queen, a mostly powerless and symbolic figurehead. That's not the president.

I absolutely don't think the POTUS is in any way a powerless or symbolic figurehead. He/She's arguably the most powerful person on the planet and is afforded the power of that position to do as they see fit.

Sadly in Trump's case that seems to be 16 hours a day of golf/tweets/Fox news and scratching his nuts. He could have lead the world in this, simply by trusting in and supporting his own agencies and experts.

Politician's reputations are made during times of crisis.

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 Post subject: Re: Anybody want a Corona?
PostPosted: Thu September 17, 2020 5:00 am 
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Nobody has ever followed Trump in anything his entire life. He's always been a joke. When he became president, part of what was going to come with territory is a void in leadership in a time of crisis. It was always going to be this way.


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 Post subject: Re: Anybody want a Corona?
PostPosted: Thu September 17, 2020 6:13 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Anybody want a Corona?
PostPosted: Thu September 17, 2020 10:33 am 
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I doubt Corona plays out differently with Biden in office. Not that he isn't an idiot, but the federal gov't has been pretty useless for awhile, and people are gonna do what they want anyway.

The US was always gonna get it the worst, because we don't like being told what to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Anybody want a Corona?
PostPosted: Thu September 17, 2020 11:01 am 
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You're probably right but 1000%, as a nation, if POTUS (whoever it was) was strong on the science and messaged masks and social distancing from the outset AND ensured meaningful, long term financial assistance was provided (which I appreciate would mean dealing with the other guys and is probably the biggest sticking point here) you'd be in a far far far better position today.

Having said that though, any 2nd wave would probably still be enormous in the US though, for the reasons you state, as well as the physical limitations you face with so many people across so many localities.

Here's hoping this actually is the 2nd wave right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Anybody want a Corona?
PostPosted: Thu September 17, 2020 12:17 pm 
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verb_to_trust wrote:
B wrote:
verb_to_trust wrote:
Why did trump get killed for talking about herd immunity? People realize that's the only way out of this right? Obviously based on the assumption it is accelerated by a vaccine.

I understood him to be talking about non-vaccine herd immunity, which would leave several million americans dead.


I'm not a proponent of "letting it rip" but it's impossible to know how many people would die in that type of a situation. The case numbers aren't accurate. How could they be? Do we really think everyone who is asymptomatic or carrying mild symptoms is running to get tested? You can't get a math equation right if you don't even have the data.

Incomplete knowledge is not the same as no knowledge.

And even so, admitting that incomplete knowledge, how long would you watch a couple thousand Americans die per week before decided to cut your losses on the "lots of people are asymptomatic" bet?

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 Post subject: Re: Anybody want a Corona?
PostPosted: Thu September 17, 2020 1:25 pm 
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Higgs wrote:
You're probably right but 1000%, as a nation, if POTUS (whoever it was) was strong on the science and messaged masks and social distancing from the outset AND ensured meaningful, long term financial assistance was provided (which I appreciate would mean dealing with the other guys and is probably the biggest sticking point here) you'd be in a far far far better position today.

Having said that though, any 2nd wave would probably still be enormous in the US though, for the reasons you state, as well as the physical limitations you face with so many people across so many localities.

Here's hoping this actually is the 2nd wave right now.

Trudeau has a deep need to be adored and so, does try to do the right thing within a very limited world view that lacks all self-awareness. He would tell you he bows down to science at all times. That said, he was against masks until he wasn't against masks. Basically that we were too stupid to wear them correctly. Somehow with no training we have all magically been imbibed with magical mask wearing powers. Trudeau was also against border closures until he wasn't against border closures. In fact, in his virtuous world those requesting border closures were called racists when he was still calling for open borders. As far as Covid goes, Trudeau has been a less vocal but equally inept leader as Trump.

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 Post subject: Re: Anybody want a Corona?
PostPosted: Thu September 17, 2020 1:25 pm 
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where's the damn delete option

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Last edited by surfndestroy on Thu September 17, 2020 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Anybody want a Corona?
PostPosted: Thu September 17, 2020 2:17 pm 
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Yeah, people forget that when Trump closed travel to china the woke brigade all screeched about it: Chuck and Nancy, Cuomo, Biden. I remember not knowing what to think at the time but our political leaders certainly saw it as yet another opportunity to go tribal and shit tweet about something.


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 Post subject: Re: Anybody want a Corona?
PostPosted: Thu September 17, 2020 2:48 pm 
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verb_to_trust wrote:
Yeah, people forget that when Trump closed travel to china the woke brigade all screeched about it: Chuck and Nancy, Cuomo, Biden. I remember not knowing what to think at the time but our political leaders certainly saw it as yet another opportunity to go tribal and shit tweet about something.

So, here’s the thing:

1. They announced the travel ban on January 31st.

2. A search through Chuck, Nancy, and Biden’s comments from February reveals no screeching, and barely even an acknowledgement that the ban exists. Feel free to google search it for me, but....people might forget that those leaders shrieked at the time because those leaders didn’t shriek.

3. A **March 3rd** factcheck.org article says
Quote:
Trump said Democrats “loudly criticized and protested” his announced travel restrictions, and that they “called me a racist because I made that decision.” Trump is overstating Democratic opposition. None of the party’s congressional leaders and none of the Democratic candidates running for president have directly criticized that decision, though at least two Democrats have.

4. The same day that the China travel ban was signed, the president also signed an expansion of an already-controversial travel ban based on terrorism risk. This is the famous “Muslim Ban.” The expansion of EO 13780 *did* prompt Democratic response and agitation, as it did when first enacted, including a bill intended to limit the president’s ability to executive order such laws. But even the bill’s authors at the time noted that they were writing it carefully to avoid placing restrictions on decisions like the China travel ban.

5. For the record, it wasn’t even a travel ban. The people who did criticize it did so in part because it set no restrictions for Americans traveling back and forth to China. In February LA continued to average more than 20 planes a day to and from China.

6. There were, as ever, some misinformation campaigns trying to create the narrative you describe at the time. Like this one the AP fact checked:
Quote:
In the last few days, a fabricated tweet circulated on social media making it appear that Schumer, the Senate minority leader, posted a statement Feb. 5 criticizing Trump’s travel ban around the new coronavirus.

“The premature travel ban to and from China by the current administration is just an excuse to further his ongoing war against immigrants. There must be a check and balance on these restrictions,” the false tweet stated. A number of people on social media falsely claimed that Schumer deleted the tweet.

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 Post subject: Re: Anybody want a Corona?
PostPosted: Thu September 17, 2020 3:19 pm 
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McParadigm wrote:
verb_to_trust wrote:
Yeah, people forget that when Trump closed travel to china the woke brigade all screeched about it: Chuck and Nancy, Cuomo, Biden. I remember not knowing what to think at the time but our political leaders certainly saw it as yet another opportunity to go tribal and shit tweet about something.

So, here’s the thing:

1. They announced the travel ban on January 31st.

2. A search through Chuck, Nancy, and Biden’s comments from February reveals no screeching, and barely even an acknowledgement that the ban exists. Feel free to google search it for me, but....people might forget that those leaders shrieked at the time because those leaders didn’t shriek.

3. A **March 3rd** factcheck.org article says
Quote:
Trump said Democrats “loudly criticized and protested” his announced travel restrictions, and that they “called me a racist because I made that decision.” Trump is overstating Democratic opposition. None of the party’s congressional leaders and none of the Democratic candidates running for president have directly criticized that decision, though at least two Democrats have.

4. The same day that the China travel ban was signed, the president also signed an expansion of an already-controversial travel ban based on terrorism risk. This is the famous “Muslim Ban.” The expansion of EO 13780 *did* prompt Democratic response and agitation, as it did when first enacted, including a bill intended to limit the president’s ability to executive order such laws. But even the bill’s authors at the time noted that they were writing it carefully to avoid placing restrictions on decisions like the China travel ban.

5. For the record, it wasn’t even a travel ban. The people who did criticize it did so in part because it set no restrictions for Americans traveling back and forth to China. In February LA continued to average more than 20 planes a day to and from China.

6. There were, as ever, some misinformation campaigns trying to create the narrative you describe at the time. Like this one the AP fact checked:
Quote:
In the last few days, a fabricated tweet circulated on social media making it appear that Schumer, the Senate minority leader, posted a statement Feb. 5 criticizing Trump’s travel ban around the new coronavirus.

“The premature travel ban to and from China by the current administration is just an excuse to further his ongoing war against immigrants. There must be a check and balance on these restrictions,” the false tweet stated. A number of people on social media falsely claimed that Schumer deleted the tweet.

Nice work here McP. Thanks for the effort as ever.

I find it strange that anyone would have called out a travel ban back when this was all starting up. Certainly my memory of when our PM closed our borders recalls the Australian population almost as one elbow-bumping in a celebratory, bi-partisan show of total agreement.

Those were scary and uncertain times for everyone. One of the few times in recent history when almost everyone agreed with a decision of such magnitude.

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 Post subject: Re: Anybody want a Corona?
PostPosted: Thu September 17, 2020 6:18 pm 
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Biden called it "xenophobic". I distinctly remember hearing him say it and thinking it was a dumb thing to say. I'm sorry your database of tweets didn't turn it up.

THANK YOU FOR ALL YOU DODOOOO THOUGH MCP


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 Post subject: Re: Anybody want a Corona?
PostPosted: Thu September 17, 2020 6:35 pm 
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verb_to_trust wrote:
Biden called it "xenophobic". I distinctly remember hearing him say it and thinking it was a dumb thing to say. I'm sorry your database of tweets didn't turn it up.

THANK YOU FOR ALL YOU DODOOOO THOUGH MCP

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