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Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 9:55 pm Posts: 13819 Location: An office full of assholes
philpritchard wrote:
numbers wrote:
Toronto might have made alot of moves, but they essentially acquired the core of a last place team.
This argument has been used since the trade was made, and it's just such a ridiculous and unfair way of portraying the trade. Would you be making the same argument if the Red Sox had gone out and acquired Troy Tulowitzki and Carlos Gonzalez? Or Felix Hernandez and Dustin Ackley? Or Joe Mauer and Josh Willingham? I mean... those are all core players on last place teams.
That doesn't even factor in that they've added the NL batting champion and NL Cy Young winner to go along with them. There are a lot of questions surrounding the Jays, especially in the new acquisitions, and I genuinely wouldn't be that surprised to see them finish fourth given the strength of the division... but that's such a weak argument.
Is the man in white giving instruction to the Blue Jays' newcomers in spring training?
Toronto might have made alot of moves, but they essentially acquired the core of a last place team.
This argument has been used since the trade was made, and it's just such a ridiculous and unfair way of portraying the trade. Would you be making the same argument if the Red Sox had gone out and acquired Troy Tulowitzki and Carlos Gonzalez? Or Felix Hernandez and Dustin Ackley? Or Joe Mauer and Josh Willingham? I mean... those are all core players on last place teams.
That doesn't even factor in that they've added the NL batting champion and NL Cy Young winner to go along with them. There are a lot of questions surrounding the Jays, especially in the new acquisitions, and I genuinely wouldn't be that surprised to see them finish fourth given the strength of the division... but that's such a weak argument.
Is the man in white giving instruction to the Blue Jays' newcomers in spring training?
Toronto might have made alot of moves, but they essentially acquired the core of a last place team.
This argument has been used since the trade was made, and it's just such a ridiculous and unfair way of portraying the trade. Would you be making the same argument if the Red Sox had gone out and acquired Troy Tulowitzki and Carlos Gonzalez? Or Felix Hernandez and Dustin Ackley? Or Joe Mauer and Josh Willingham? I mean... those are all core players on last place teams.
That doesn't even factor in that they've added the NL batting champion and NL Cy Young winner to go along with them. There are a lot of questions surrounding the Jays, especially in the new acquisitions, and I genuinely wouldn't be that surprised to see them finish fourth given the strength of the division... but that's such a weak argument.
I think there is a lot of validity in the argument, and just because you hedge it with "well they could still finish 4th" doesn't make your dismissal of it any better. Realistically, I see the Jays finishing second behind the Rays. But that's more of a condemnation of the Red Sox and Yankees this year, and the widely held belief that there is no way the O's are going to do it again. The failures of these guys as a core in Florida really have the strong potential to be the failure they have in Toronto... Reyes and Johnson can't stay healthy, and Buerhle is declining. Melky did NOT want the batting title, and ultimately presents the biggest question mark. I could be wrong, but I expect Dickey to not do well in the AL.
and Id make the same argument about anyone aquiring Tulo (cant stay healthy) and CarGo (solid, but park effect guy). Felix is a one dominant player trade, so is Mauer- the type guys you can expect to take you over the top. Ackley and Willingham are nice complimentary pieces, but I dont think anyone looks at them as being the core of anything.
Having said all of that... The Blue Jays did the right thing. The next 2-3 years could be their window. The Yankees and Sox are both significantly down, and with the Yankees still trying to shed payroll, they probably wont have that quick "Well shit, let's blow $200 million on quick fix guys." So now Toronto has it's best chance to win it. They saw an opportunity and are rolling the dice, but thinking that gettiing 3 of the 4 best players on a BAD team WITH QUESTION MARKS (not like Felix or Mauer, or say a McCutchen.) is a questionable move is not at all unreasonable.
I think there is a lot of validity in the argument, and just because you hedge it with "well they could still finish 4th" doesn't make your dismissal of it any better. Realistically, I see the Jays finishing second behind the Rays. But that's more of a condemnation of the Red Sox and Yankees this year, and the widely held belief that there is no way the O's are going to do it again. The failures of these guys as a core in Florida really have the strong potential to be the failure they have in Toronto... Reyes and Johnson can't stay healthy, and Buerhle is declining. Melky did NOT want the batting title, and ultimately presents the biggest question mark. I could be wrong, but I expect Dickey to not do well in the AL.
and Id make the same argument about anyone aquiring Tulo (cant stay healthy) and CarGo (solid, but park effect guy). Felix is a one dominant player trade, so is Mauer- the type guys you can expect to take you over the top. Ackley and Willingham are nice complimentary pieces, but I dont think anyone looks at them as being the core of anything.
Having said all of that... The Blue Jays did the right thing. The next 2-3 years could be their window. The Yankees and Sox are both significantly down, and with the Yankees still trying to shed payroll, they probably wont have that quick "Well shit, let's blow $200 million on quick fix guys." So now Toronto has it's best chance to win it. They saw an opportunity and are rolling the dice, but thinking that gettiing 3 of the 4 best players on a BAD team WITH QUESTION MARKS (not like Felix or Mauer, or say a McCutchen.) is a questionable move is not at all unreasonable.
But you just explained logically why there are concerns in the same way I did, so I agree with most of what you said. What I'm disagreeing with is the "Well Florida sucked with these guys, so why would the Jays be any better?" Well, Reyes put up 4.5 fWAR and Johnson had 3.8, while neither of them was injured at any point. Even Buehrle had 2.1, which isn't bad considering he'll be a 4-5 guy on the Jays. And Bonifacio is a great bench player, especially considering how many ABs went to Omar Vizquel last year. These players are not the reason the Marlins lost 93 games last year... they're the reason the didn't lose 100. They played on a team whose only other player of consequence was Giancarlo Stanton. They're joining a team with Jose Bautista, Edwin Encarnacion, Brett Lawrie, Melky Cabrera, R.A. Dickey, and Brandon Morrow. There are plenty of questions about plenty of players, but I don't think Florida's failure last year should factor into the equation in any way.
The Yankees will be without Granderson, Teixeira and Rodriguez until about mid-May. Their projected starting lineup for the first month or so of the season is pretty awful... it's a good thing they've got the pitching, but they could find themselves behind in a hurry this year in that division.
Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 7:12 am Posts: 1643 Location: The Jungle
am I the only one watching a shit ton of WBC games around here? LOL Chinese Taipei vs Japan was freaking intense this morning... Cuba's manager is so bushleague its not even funny... (rubbing up balls with his "batting gloves" on during pitching changes and not understand why thats not allowed LOL) and team US... sucks
its amazing how virtually all other teams in this, are treating it playoff baseball, the players and fans...
Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 7:12 am Posts: 1643 Location: The Jungle
verb_to_trust wrote:
numbers wrote:
I've been watching, it's been pretty good so far. The US team, as usual, is an embarrassment.
Guys like Braun don't cycle on their drugs until the season starts....
at least hes in it... and not only is he in it... but the Brewers had the most players sign up for it of all the MLB teams... and its believed, its because he hyped it up so much after the last time.
The Championship should be held in a caribbean countries, or asian countries...
Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 9:55 pm Posts: 13819 Location: An office full of assholes
numbers wrote:
I've been watching, it's been pretty good so far. The US team, as usual, is an embarrassment.
How can anyone expect a bunch of players thrown together like a puzzle who aren't at the pinnacle of conditioning or stamina to actually compete and succeed in this nonsense tourney?
Keith Law mentioned yesterday that the last thing that Bud Selig should want is Team USA winning this thing, because having it do so would do little to promote baseball worldwide and produce interest.
Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 6:44 pm Posts: 9188 Location: Franklin, MA
Chris_H_2 wrote:
numbers wrote:
I've been watching, it's been pretty good so far. The US team, as usual, is an embarrassment.
How can anyone expect a bunch of players thrown together like a puzzle who aren't at the pinnacle of conditioning or stamina to actually compete and succeed in this nonsense tourney?
Keith Law mentioned yesterday that the last thing that Bud Selig should want is Team USA winning this thing, because having it do so would do little to promote baseball worldwide and produce interest.
It would still be nice to not have to see them be the only team in the tournament every time that is playing like they dont give a shit. If the USA players took this thing more seriously it wouldnt be so much of a nonsense tourney.
These USA guys just do not care. Plain and simple. Its bad enough the world is better than us at soccer.....do we need to give them out national pastime too? Italy are embarrassing these guys...
Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 6:44 pm Posts: 9188 Location: Franklin, MA
Perfect example, Wright hits a grand slam to take the lead and no one on the team is excited about it. Any other team in this tourney would have been going apeshit.
Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 7:12 am Posts: 1643 Location: The Jungle
numbers wrote:
Perfect example, Wright hits a grand slam to take the lead and no one on the team is excited about it. Any other team in this tourney would have been going apeshit.
thats because the U.S. team is "acting like theyve been there before? LOL
nah that pretty much does sum it up though? the U.S. team looks like their playing a game in mid May against a team not in the same division that they should beat...
if the U.S. wins today... then loses tomorrow... theyll be 1-2 along with Mexico, who beat them, giving Mexico the tie-breaker, and the U.S. will be 4th place... which means, theyd have to QUALIFY FOR THE NEXT WBC LOL
I agree, the U.S. NOT winning this is good for the rest of the world/baseball... but the U.S. being so lame they have to re-qualify for their own tournament? is embarrassing to MLB and every player on that team better feel really embarrassed if they dont hold on to this win tonight, and beat Canada tomorrow.
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