Mon March 16, 2015 6:47 pm
Green Habit wrote:Hypocrisy aside, paying coaches lavishly is the most defensible of all of the things schools spend lavishly on. They'd be off to the NFL and NBA otherwise.darth_vedder wrote:Oh also, sucks that Clemson was in this bit. I don't agree with coach Dabo Swinney on this. As with most things, there has to be middle ground.
Mon March 16, 2015 7:24 pm
How bloated is the market relative to the revenue generated, though? Someone ought to crunch the numbers and see if it's out of whack relative to professional sports. I'd expect it is to some extent...probably because they're not paying the players. But if you drive the coaching salaries down too far some of them are definitely going to chase the money at the pro levels--even if it's only as coordinators or assistant coaches. Yes, some won't be able to cut it and be forced to go back to the college level, but at least they'd have gotten a bigger paycheck for a few years.jwfocker wrote:I don't know. I kind of disagree. I don't think it's defensible and I think it's a bloated market that has reached an absurd level. College coaches are paid way way too much in my mind. Hey good for them but its become absurd.Green Habit wrote:Hypocrisy aside, paying coaches lavishly is the most defensible of all of the things schools spend lavishly on. They'd be off to the NFL and NBA otherwise.darth_vedder wrote:Oh also, sucks that Clemson was in this bit. I don't agree with coach Dabo Swinney on this. As with most things, there has to be middle ground.
It's an odd setup. To say that they would be off to the NFL/NBA otherwise is a bit dismissive of the issue.
Mon March 16, 2015 8:13 pm
Green Habit wrote:How bloated is the market relative to the revenue generated, though? Someone ought to crunch the numbers and see if it's out of whack relative to professional sports. I'd expect it is to some extent...probably because they're not paying the players. But if you drive the coaching salaries down too far some of them are definitely going to chase the money at the pro levels--even if it's only as coordinators or assistant coaches. Yes, some won't be able to cut it and be forced to go back to the college level, but at least they'd have gotten a bigger paycheck for a few years.jwfocker wrote:I don't know. I kind of disagree. I don't think it's defensible and I think it's a bloated market that has reached an absurd level. College coaches are paid way way too much in my mind. Hey good for them but its become absurd.Green Habit wrote:Hypocrisy aside, paying coaches lavishly is the most defensible of all of the things schools spend lavishly on. They'd be off to the NFL and NBA otherwise.darth_vedder wrote:Oh also, sucks that Clemson was in this bit. I don't agree with coach Dabo Swinney on this. As with most things, there has to be middle ground.
It's an odd setup. To say that they would be off to the NFL/NBA otherwise is a bit dismissive of the issue.
Tue March 17, 2015 11:35 am
Tue March 17, 2015 2:33 pm
darth_vedder wrote:Regarding Coach Swinney, I thought that John Oliver segment was a bit off, and if memory serves correctly, that clip he used was around the time SC Lawmakers were considering paying players.
Swinney went on to say that he is for changes in the rules, and "enhanced" scholarships, but against flat out paying his players. Oliver, as he and Stewart often due, use clips to "prove" their point, but fail to explain the full context. So now the world thinks Dabo is some selfish taskmaster, and take what Oliver said at 100% face value, when the truth is, it's far more complex.
Here is what he went on to say, but I'm sure John Oliver will never, ever mention this:
“When I was in college, it was the same discussion. I am 1,000 percent in favor of a stipend or a scholarship enhancement, modernizing the scholarship is probably the better term,” he said, “Because it hasn’t changed, yet it costs more to go to a movie, it costs more to buy gas, it costs more to wash your clothes than it did when I was in school.”
He is not in favor of bringing a professional flavor to intercollegiate athletics.
“There needs to be an adjustment there, but as far as professionalizing college athletics - first of all, college athletics would go away. I’m 1,000 percent against that. We’ve got enough entitlement in this country as it is and it totally devalues an education. It just blows my mind. They don’t even want to quantify an education. I’m standing here because I got my education.
“I didn’t get into coaching to make money. Coaches weren’t making any money when I got into coaching. I got into coaching because it’s what I wanted to do in my life and because it’s what I was passionate about, but I was able to do it because I had my education. That’s what changed my life. That’s what changes everybody’s life.”
Tue March 17, 2015 3:11 pm
I get a bit bugged by the long shot clock, too many timeouts, lack of quarters, and the possession arrow. But that may not have been what you were going for.Fuck You Jobu wrote:I don't see how college basketball is any different from professional basketball. Other than the fact the NCAA doesn't pay market rates for it's labor, what is the difference?
Tue March 17, 2015 3:19 pm
The bolded is something Swinney really shouldn't have said.Dabo Swinney wrote:“When I was in college, it was the same discussion. I am 1,000 percent in favor of a stipend or a scholarship enhancement, modernizing the scholarship is probably the better term,” he said, “Because it hasn’t changed, yet it costs more to go to a movie, it costs more to buy gas, it costs more to wash your clothes than it did when I was in school.”
“There needs to be an adjustment there, but as far as professionalizing college athletics - first of all, college athletics would go away. I’m 1,000 percent against that. We’ve got enough entitlement in this country as it is and it totally devalues an education. It just blows my mind. They don’t even want to quantify an education. I’m standing here because I got my education.
“I didn’t get into coaching to make money. Coaches weren’t making any money when I got into coaching. I got into coaching because it’s what I wanted to do in my life and because it’s what I was passionate about, but I was able to do it because I had my education. That’s what changed my life. That’s what changes everybody’s life.”
Tue March 17, 2015 3:28 pm
Fuck You Jobu wrote:darth_vedder wrote:Regarding Coach Swinney, I thought that John Oliver segment was a bit off, and if memory serves correctly, that clip he used was around the time SC Lawmakers were considering paying players.
Swinney went on to say that he is for changes in the rules, and "enhanced" scholarships, but against flat out paying his players. Oliver, as he and Stewart often due, use clips to "prove" their point, but fail to explain the full context. So now the world thinks Dabo is some selfish taskmaster, and take what Oliver said at 100% face value, when the truth is, it's far more complex.
Here is what he went on to say, but I'm sure John Oliver will never, ever mention this:
“When I was in college, it was the same discussion. I am 1,000 percent in favor of a stipend or a scholarship enhancement, modernizing the scholarship is probably the better term,” he said, “Because it hasn’t changed, yet it costs more to go to a movie, it costs more to buy gas, it costs more to wash your clothes than it did when I was in school.”
He is not in favor of bringing a professional flavor to intercollegiate athletics.
“There needs to be an adjustment there, but as far as professionalizing college athletics - first of all, college athletics would go away. I’m 1,000 percent against that. We’ve got enough entitlement in this country as it is and it totally devalues an education. It just blows my mind. They don’t even want to quantify an education. I’m standing here because I got my education.
“I didn’t get into coaching to make money. Coaches weren’t making any money when I got into coaching. I got into coaching because it’s what I wanted to do in my life and because it’s what I was passionate about, but I was able to do it because I had my education. That’s what changed my life. That’s what changes everybody’s life.”
What does ""enhanced" scholarships" mean? A college education is one of the least fungible forms of compensation. You can't buy food with it.
I love his comment on "entitlement". He makes millions of dollars a year. He is the .01%. How much more entitled can you get?
I don't see how college basketball is any different from professional basketball. Other than the fact the NCAA doesn't pay market rates for it's labor, what is the difference?
Tue March 17, 2015 4:07 pm
Tue March 17, 2015 4:28 pm
Green Habit wrote:I get a bit bugged by the long shot clock, too many timeouts, lack of quarters, and the possession arrow. But that may not have been what you were going for.Fuck You Jobu wrote:I don't see how college basketball is any different from professional basketball. Other than the fact the NCAA doesn't pay market rates for it's labor, what is the difference?
Tue March 17, 2015 4:43 pm
darth_vedder wrote:Fuck You Jobu wrote:darth_vedder wrote:Regarding Coach Swinney, I thought that John Oliver segment was a bit off, and if memory serves correctly, that clip he used was around the time SC Lawmakers were considering paying players.
Swinney went on to say that he is for changes in the rules, and "enhanced" scholarships, but against flat out paying his players. Oliver, as he and Stewart often due, use clips to "prove" their point, but fail to explain the full context. So now the world thinks Dabo is some selfish taskmaster, and take what Oliver said at 100% face value, when the truth is, it's far more complex.
Here is what he went on to say, but I'm sure John Oliver will never, ever mention this:
“When I was in college, it was the same discussion. I am 1,000 percent in favor of a stipend or a scholarship enhancement, modernizing the scholarship is probably the better term,” he said, “Because it hasn’t changed, yet it costs more to go to a movie, it costs more to buy gas, it costs more to wash your clothes than it did when I was in school.”
He is not in favor of bringing a professional flavor to intercollegiate athletics.
“There needs to be an adjustment there, but as far as professionalizing college athletics - first of all, college athletics would go away. I’m 1,000 percent against that. We’ve got enough entitlement in this country as it is and it totally devalues an education. It just blows my mind. They don’t even want to quantify an education. I’m standing here because I got my education.
“I didn’t get into coaching to make money. Coaches weren’t making any money when I got into coaching. I got into coaching because it’s what I wanted to do in my life and because it’s what I was passionate about, but I was able to do it because I had my education. That’s what changed my life. That’s what changes everybody’s life.”
What does ""enhanced" scholarships" mean? A college education is one of the least fungible forms of compensation. You can't buy food with it.
I love his comment on "entitlement". He makes millions of dollars a year. He is the .01%. How much more entitled can you get?
I don't see how college basketball is any different from professional basketball. Other than the fact the NCAA doesn't pay market rates for it's labor, what is the difference?
I'm not entirely sure what "enhanced scholarship" means, but I know Dabo is for middle ground, especially with the food / shelter stuff. What I got from his full quote wasn't so much the entitlement part, but that there is middle ground to be had.
I'm not sure I agree with the degree not being worth anything. I think it is. Many of these players would not have an opportunity if not for their gifts, and the college is giving them that opportunity, be it pro sports, or a 4 year degree. That is worth a lot. Plus there are other perks the athletes get that others don't.
Also, b/c the coach makes a lot, John Oliver, you, imply the coaches are assholes. That may be true in some cases, but Dabo is different. He treats his players well, mama's like him, which is one of the reasons Clemson does well in recruiting. He also is very charitable with his money, and takes out of his salary to pay his assistants higher.
I'm all for changes to the NCAA, hell, I'd be happy if it went away, but I am not sold on flat out paying players. Some positive changes could be:*Better insurance - if injured make sure they are covered for that injury after college.
*Higher stipened amounts - not sure if there is a standard. maybe raise it for the sports that make the most money (football / basketball).
*Accept reasonable donations - allow the athletes to get donations (no more than "x" amount) and allow them to receive discounts where applicable.
*Lax rules on food / shelter - I mean, c'mon, this should be a no brainer.
Tue March 17, 2015 4:54 pm
I did think this was Oliver's weakest point. I had basketball coaches in school that were nothing more than teachers that still cussed the shit out of us. And I laughed pretty hard when I saw Mike Leach on there, that guy is on a different thought level altogether.darth_vedder wrote:Also, b/c the coach makes a lot, John Oliver, you, imply the coaches are assholes. That may be true in some cases, but Dabo is different. He treats his players well, mama's like him, which is one of the reasons Clemson does well in recruiting. He also is very charitable with his money, and takes out of his salary to pay his assistants higher.
My immediate changes would be the following:darth_vedder wrote:I'm all for changes to the NCAA, hell, I'd be happy if it went away, but I am not sold on flat out paying players. Some positive changes could be:*Better insurance - if injured make sure they are covered for that injury after college.
*Higher stipened amounts - not sure if there is a standard. maybe raise it for the sports that make the most money (football / basketball).
*Accept reasonable donations - allow the athletes to get donations (no more than "x" amount) and allow them to receive discounts where applicable.
*Lax rules on food / shelter - I mean, c'mon, this should be a no brainer.
Tue March 17, 2015 5:14 pm
I have a lot of conflicting thoughts on these facts, so this may be a real jumbled post that I may retract parts of later.Fuck You Jobu wrote:In regards to the players getting a college education as compensation, how does that affect someone like Devin Hester? He's not intelligent at all, but he did bring in a lot of money to Miami, so how will an 'education' help him? He's not bright enough to graduate. To put it another way, say I wanted to hire you to come clean up my big yard that is full of dogshit. It's a huge yard with a lot of dogs and you'll work very hard shoveling >10hrs a day. I won't pay you any money. But I will teach how to become a super-advanced rocket engineer that will be worth millions!! This education does require a Mensa type intelligence. I'll see you reporting for work tomorrow, right? I mean the education is worth millions of dollars.
Also, how much of an "education" are most of these guys getting if they are spending all their time in the gym, going to meetings, practicing? It's basically a full time (+OT), so how much time is left for this "free education"? Some can manage sure, but as we're seeing more can't.... Look at the SEC graduation rates...
Tue March 17, 2015 5:34 pm
I didn't want to let this slip, since I'm a conference realignment nerd. I've done something similar to this before, but what do you think of these eight regional conferences that mostly keep in line with what we have now and make sure that pretty much none of the major players get left out?darth_vedder wrote:Mainly, I just think the NCAA needs to blow up, and a new governing body forms with things like actual regional conferences
Tue March 17, 2015 5:54 pm
Tue March 17, 2015 7:37 pm
Wed March 18, 2015 7:19 pm
Green Habit wrote:I did think this was Oliver's weakest point. I had basketball coaches in school that were nothing more than teachers that still cussed the shit out of us. And I laughed pretty hard when I saw Mike Leach on there, that guy is on a different thought level altogether.darth_vedder wrote:Also, b/c the coach makes a lot, John Oliver, you, imply the coaches are assholes. That may be true in some cases, but Dabo is different. He treats his players well, mama's like him, which is one of the reasons Clemson does well in recruiting. He also is very charitable with his money, and takes out of his salary to pay his assistants higher.My immediate changes would be the following:darth_vedder wrote:I'm all for changes to the NCAA, hell, I'd be happy if it went away, but I am not sold on flat out paying players. Some positive changes could be:*Better insurance - if injured make sure they are covered for that injury after college.
*Higher stipened amounts - not sure if there is a standard. maybe raise it for the sports that make the most money (football / basketball).
*Accept reasonable donations - allow the athletes to get donations (no more than "x" amount) and allow them to receive discounts where applicable.
*Lax rules on food / shelter - I mean, c'mon, this should be a no brainer.
--Allow players to seek endorsements, but in turn they have to pay for their own scholarships.
--If the school is paying for the scholarship, they have to grant all four years of it as long as the student meets typical academic standards and doesn't transfer. No pulling scholarships because you got injured or got cut.
--Speaking of transferring, abolish the one-year waiting period for transferring to another I-A school. This one especially drives me nuts when coaches don't have to wait.
--Abolish the forfeiture of all remaining years of eligibility if a player "turns pro". Give the student 4-5 years maximum, but it can be used at any time.
I may have forgotten more but between your list and my list we've made things a lot better for players without even answering how much of a cut, if any, they should get from athletics revenue (aside from stipends).
Finally, this isn't something the NCAA has control over but the NFL and NBA need to abolish their age limits. Stop using colleges as free farm systems and train your own damn players. Baseball does this just fine.
Wed March 18, 2015 7:28 pm
darth_vedder wrote:Green Habit wrote:I did think this was Oliver's weakest point. I had basketball coaches in school that were nothing more than teachers that still cussed the shit out of us. And I laughed pretty hard when I saw Mike Leach on there, that guy is on a different thought level altogether.darth_vedder wrote:Also, b/c the coach makes a lot, John Oliver, you, imply the coaches are assholes. That may be true in some cases, but Dabo is different. He treats his players well, mama's like him, which is one of the reasons Clemson does well in recruiting. He also is very charitable with his money, and takes out of his salary to pay his assistants higher.My immediate changes would be the following:darth_vedder wrote:I'm all for changes to the NCAA, hell, I'd be happy if it went away, but I am not sold on flat out paying players. Some positive changes could be:*Better insurance - if injured make sure they are covered for that injury after college.
*Higher stipened amounts - not sure if there is a standard. maybe raise it for the sports that make the most money (football / basketball).
*Accept reasonable donations - allow the athletes to get donations (no more than "x" amount) and allow them to receive discounts where applicable.
*Lax rules on food / shelter - I mean, c'mon, this should be a no brainer.
--Allow players to seek endorsements, but in turn they have to pay for their own scholarships.
--If the school is paying for the scholarship, they have to grant all four years of it as long as the student meets typical academic standards and doesn't transfer. No pulling scholarships because you got injured or got cut.
--Speaking of transferring, abolish the one-year waiting period for transferring to another I-A school. This one especially drives me nuts when coaches don't have to wait.
--Abolish the forfeiture of all remaining years of eligibility if a player "turns pro". Give the student 4-5 years maximum, but it can be used at any time.
I may have forgotten more but between your list and my list we've made things a lot better for players without even answering how much of a cut, if any, they should get from athletics revenue (aside from stipends).
Finally, this isn't something the NCAA has control over but the NFL and NBA need to abolish their age limits. Stop using colleges as free farm systems and train your own damn players. Baseball does this just fine.
Yep, this is what I'm talking about. Improvements like these would go a long way, and take a lot of the problems out of the picture. This is the type of middle ground I'd like to see come of all this.
Wed March 18, 2015 11:21 pm
Let's take a fictional example based on the past for how I'd ideally see the system working. Let's go back to 2003 when Ernie Sims was rated the #1 overall recruit by Rivals. Matt Millen falls in love with him and the Lions draft him right after high school. However, it's clear that he's in over his head and he gets cut after two years. Sims still has strong sentiment to his hometown Tallahassee and then plays for FSU. He has three freakish years with the Seminoles, and then builds his pro stock better so that he returns to the NFL and does better than he did before.Monkey_Driven wrote:I like these improvements too. I have mixed feelings about age limits. Both the NFL and NBA would need to create (in the NFL's case) or improve (The D-League) their minor league system to welcome all of the kids leaving early. The athlete should also be allowed to go to college with some sort of penalty if they don't get drafted or picked up in free agency.
Thu March 19, 2015 11:46 am
Green Habit wrote:Let's take a fictional example based on the past for how I'd ideally see the system working. Let's go back to 2003 when Ernie Sims was rated the #1 overall recruit by Rivals. Matt Millen falls in love with him and the Lions draft him right after high school. However, it's clear that he's in over his head and he gets cut after two years. Sims still has strong sentiment to his hometown Tallahassee and then plays for FSU. He has three freakish years with the Seminoles, and then builds his pro stock better so that he returns to the NFL and does better than he did before.Monkey_Driven wrote:I like these improvements too. I have mixed feelings about age limits. Both the NFL and NBA would need to create (in the NFL's case) or improve (The D-League) their minor league system to welcome all of the kids leaving early. The athlete should also be allowed to go to college with some sort of penalty if they don't get drafted or picked up in free agency.