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 Post subject: Re: Best of Grunge Tournament: 1991-1996
PostPosted: Sun September 17, 2017 3:47 pm 
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I relistened to Core on my drive home start to finish for the first time in forever, and while I agree with KD about the STP grunge lite point for Tiny Music and maybe 2/3rds of Purple, I think it's a completely valid observation regarding core - in both the music and Weiland's performance. There are a number of good songs there, but almost everyone feels like a grunge template in a way that is not necessarily the case for most of the other bands on this list (with maybe the exception of dirt/facelift era AIC)

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 Post subject: Re: Best of Grunge Tournament: 1991-1996
PostPosted: Sun September 17, 2017 3:58 pm 
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Anders wrote:
Kevin Davis wrote:
cutuphalfdead wrote:
Birds in Hell wrote:
This thing really shows how STP just aren't in the same league as these other bands for me.

yup


I've only been watching from afar but I've had this same feeling about Alice in Chains. As I see these matches come up I'm struck by how even the AIC songs I've always considered their greatest struggle to hold ther own against much lower-tier material by these other bands. I think time may have broken down some of the aesthetic distance between AIC and a lot of their less gifted inheritors in my mind -- while the other five bands have weathered the test of time such that each of their more singular qualities seem to rise to the surface while their more generic "alt-rock" elements just kind of linger as inevitable timestamps (no different than the Beatles, the Who, Zeppelin, Springsteen, etc.), AIC feels evermore like squarely a '90's band, and when I engage with their music (which is far rarer than it is with any of the others), I feel like I just don't hear in it now what I heard in it then.

I can never help but feel like people who listen to STP and conclude that they're "grunge lite" simply aren't listening. As someone whose tastes steer more centrally towards eclectic pop, jazz, etc, with more formal compositional qualities, STP were operating at a level of musical sophistication -- at least such that it refers to employing richer musical ideas to arrive at finished products that are no less empirically satisfying for their complexity -- that utterly trounces the other bands on this list.

Soundgarden are a weird one for me in that they're the only band on this list where I put off discovering a good portion of their catalog until semi-recently (I didn't really dig into anything pre-"Badmotorfinger" until after the reunion), so a lot of their music is fresher in my mind and present sans the nostalgia that accompanies the rest of this stuff. I love their music but I don't process it the same way as these other bands -- their stock trade is compositions more than "songs" in a lot of regards, meaning that the bare essences of their words-and-music are a lot less gripping absent the complex building blocks and structural framework of their arrangements. I don't mean to suggest that stuff's not all of a piece, just that the more engaging components of their music don't always register with me on sight of a song title. I'd probably be voting against a lot of their songs if gut reaction was the driving motivator.

This era of Smashing Pumpkins has aged extremely well for me -- I can listen to pretty much anything from the 1991-1996 period and just get absolutely swallowed up by the sound of it, even when the songwriting isn't anything special. Of all of these bands, they were the most creatively restless by some distance, and I love how that reflects in their body of work -- every marginal evolution is mapped out in real time, presumably owing to the fact that Corgan was such an egocentrist that the only one he trusted enough to bounce his ideas off of was a recording that he could play back to himself.

Nirvana's small but perfect body of work remains one of the most satisfying collections of music I own. Every year it sounds deeper, richer, smarter, funnier, louder, catchier, and more visionary. Truly life-defining music for me.

And Pearl Jam are Pearl Jam. They can seem like dancing bears at times, but I haven't written 10,000,000 words on a message board for any of these other bands.

1. Pearl Jam
2. Nirvana
3. STP (tie)
3. Smashing Pumpkins (tie)
5. Soundgarden
6. AIC


You always write such great posts, that I want to read them twice. Still don't really agree with your opinion here about AiC, and the ranking of Soundgarden. Have you listened a lot to Jar Of Flies?


Hey, thanks! And yes -- I know "Jar of Flies" intimately. I played it to death, along with most of AIC's stuff, between 1995 and 2000 (the box set was really my last meaningful period of engagement with AIC, even though I ultimately thought most of the extras on it were junk). It's a strong EP, and probably their best release from beginning to end. But it's kind of an illustration of what I'm talking about -- in my mind, "Rotten Apple" and "Nutshell" are peak AIC, yet put them up against virtually any title from "Nevermind" or "In Utero" and they immediately diminish for me. I certainly wouldn't say I don't like it, it just hasn't travelled with me the way these other bands have.


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 Post subject: Re: Best of Grunge Tournament: 1991-1996
PostPosted: Sun September 17, 2017 4:03 pm 
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Kevin Davis wrote:
Anders wrote:
Kevin Davis wrote:
cutuphalfdead wrote:
Birds in Hell wrote:
This thing really shows how STP just aren't in the same league as these other bands for me.

yup


I've only been watching from afar but I've had this same feeling about Alice in Chains. As I see these matches come up I'm struck by how even the AIC songs I've always considered their greatest struggle to hold ther own against much lower-tier material by these other bands. I think time may have broken down some of the aesthetic distance between AIC and a lot of their less gifted inheritors in my mind -- while the other five bands have weathered the test of time such that each of their more singular qualities seem to rise to the surface while their more generic "alt-rock" elements just kind of linger as inevitable timestamps (no different than the Beatles, the Who, Zeppelin, Springsteen, etc.), AIC feels evermore like squarely a '90's band, and when I engage with their music (which is far rarer than it is with any of the others), I feel like I just don't hear in it now what I heard in it then.

I can never help but feel like people who listen to STP and conclude that they're "grunge lite" simply aren't listening. As someone whose tastes steer more centrally towards eclectic pop, jazz, etc, with more formal compositional qualities, STP were operating at a level of musical sophistication -- at least such that it refers to employing richer musical ideas to arrive at finished products that are no less empirically satisfying for their complexity -- that utterly trounces the other bands on this list.

Soundgarden are a weird one for me in that they're the only band on this list where I put off discovering a good portion of their catalog until semi-recently (I didn't really dig into anything pre-"Badmotorfinger" until after the reunion), so a lot of their music is fresher in my mind and present sans the nostalgia that accompanies the rest of this stuff. I love their music but I don't process it the same way as these other bands -- their stock trade is compositions more than "songs" in a lot of regards, meaning that the bare essences of their words-and-music are a lot less gripping absent the complex building blocks and structural framework of their arrangements. I don't mean to suggest that stuff's not all of a piece, just that the more engaging components of their music don't always register with me on sight of a song title. I'd probably be voting against a lot of their songs if gut reaction was the driving motivator.

This era of Smashing Pumpkins has aged extremely well for me -- I can listen to pretty much anything from the 1991-1996 period and just get absolutely swallowed up by the sound of it, even when the songwriting isn't anything special. Of all of these bands, they were the most creatively restless by some distance, and I love how that reflects in their body of work -- every marginal evolution is mapped out in real time, presumably owing to the fact that Corgan was such an egocentrist that the only one he trusted enough to bounce his ideas off of was a recording that he could play back to himself.

Nirvana's small but perfect body of work remains one of the most satisfying collections of music I own. Every year it sounds deeper, richer, smarter, funnier, louder, catchier, and more visionary. Truly life-defining music for me.

And Pearl Jam are Pearl Jam. They can seem like dancing bears at times, but I haven't written 10,000,000 words on a message board for any of these other bands.

1. Pearl Jam
2. Nirvana
3. STP (tie)
3. Smashing Pumpkins (tie)
5. Soundgarden
6. AIC


You always write such great posts, that I want to read them twice. Still don't really agree with your opinion here about AiC, and the ranking of Soundgarden. Have you listened a lot to Jar Of Flies?


Hey, thanks! And yes -- I know "Jar of Flies" intimately. I played it to death, along with most of AIC's stuff, between 1995 and 2000 (the box set was really my last meaningful period of engagement with AIC, even though I ultimately thought most of the extras on it were junk). It's a strong EP, and probably their best release from beginning to end. But it's kind of an illustration of what I'm talking about -- in my mind, "Rotten Apple" and "Nutshell" are peak AIC, yet put them up against virtually any title from "Nevermind" or "In Utero" and they immediately diminish for me. I certainly wouldn't say I don't like it, it just hasn't travelled with me the way these other bands have.


That's fair then. It's the album I most often listen to from this period, and it has impressed friends of mine several times, people that aren't as aware of the music as the two of us. To me it gets better with every year that passes.


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 Post subject: Re: Best of Grunge Tournament: 1991-1996
PostPosted: Sun September 17, 2017 4:29 pm 
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Anders wrote:
Kevin Davis wrote:
cutuphalfdead wrote:
Birds in Hell wrote:
This thing really shows how STP just aren't in the same league as these other bands for me.

yup


I've only been watching from afar but I've had this same feeling about Alice in Chains. As I see these matches come up I'm struck by how even the AIC songs I've always considered their greatest struggle to hold ther own against much lower-tier material by these other bands. I think time may have broken down some of the aesthetic distance between AIC and a lot of their less gifted inheritors in my mind -- while the other five bands have weathered the test of time such that each of their more singular qualities seem to rise to the surface while their more generic "alt-rock" elements just kind of linger as inevitable timestamps (no different than the Beatles, the Who, Zeppelin, Springsteen, etc.), AIC feels evermore like squarely a '90's band, and when I engage with their music (which is far rarer than it is with any of the others), I feel like I just don't hear in it now what I heard in it then.

I can never help but feel like people who listen to STP and conclude that they're "grunge lite" simply aren't listening. As someone whose tastes steer more centrally towards eclectic pop, jazz, etc, with more formal compositional qualities, STP were operating at a level of musical sophistication -- at least such that it refers to employing richer musical ideas to arrive at finished products that are no less empirically satisfying for their complexity -- that utterly trounces the other bands on this list.

Soundgarden are a weird one for me in that they're the only band on this list where I put off discovering a good portion of their catalog until semi-recently (I didn't really dig into anything pre-"Badmotorfinger" until after the reunion), so a lot of their music is fresher in my mind and present sans the nostalgia that accompanies the rest of this stuff. I love their music but I don't process it the same way as these other bands -- their stock trade is compositions more than "songs" in a lot of regards, meaning that the bare essences of their words-and-music are a lot less gripping absent the complex building blocks and structural framework of their arrangements. I don't mean to suggest that stuff's not all of a piece, just that the more engaging components of their music don't always register with me on sight of a song title. I'd probably be voting against a lot of their songs if gut reaction was the driving motivator.

This era of Smashing Pumpkins has aged extremely well for me -- I can listen to pretty much anything from the 1991-1996 period and just get absolutely swallowed up by the sound of it, even when the songwriting isn't anything special. Of all of these bands, they were the most creatively restless by some distance, and I love how that reflects in their body of work -- every marginal evolution is mapped out in real time, presumably owing to the fact that Corgan was such an egocentrist that the only one he trusted enough to bounce his ideas off of was a recording that he could play back to himself.

Nirvana's small but perfect body of work remains one of the most satisfying collections of music I own. Every year it sounds deeper, richer, smarter, funnier, louder, catchier, and more visionary. Truly life-defining music for me.

And Pearl Jam are Pearl Jam. They can seem like dancing bears at times, but I haven't written 10,000,000 words on a message board for any of these other bands.

1. Pearl Jam
2. Nirvana
3. STP (tie)
3. Smashing Pumpkins (tie)
5. Soundgarden
6. AIC


You always write such great posts, that I want to read them twice. Still don't really agree with your opinion here about AiC, and the ranking of Soundgarden. Have you listened a lot to Jar Of Flies?


Well said as usual, KD. I've been saying all tournament that STP is a GREAT band and anyone that scoffs at that just really isn't paying attention. And I totally agree with you on AIC too. I think Jar of Flies is brilliant. It's one of the best albums made by any of these bands, but other than that there are only maybe a half dozen other AIC songs that I care about at all.

Glad you decided to chime in. I'd recently been wondering when we see you post again.


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 Post subject: Re: Best of Grunge Tournament: 1991-1996
PostPosted: Sun September 17, 2017 5:00 pm 
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stip wrote:
I relistened to Core on my drive home start to finish for the first time in forever, and while I agree with KD about the STP grunge lite point for Tiny Music and maybe 2/3rds of Purple, I think it's a completely valid observation regarding core - in both the music and Weiland's performance. There are a number of good songs there, but almost everyone feels like a grunge template in a way that is not necessarily the case for most of the other bands on this list (with maybe the exception of dirt/facelift era AIC)


I think all of these bands have debut albums that comprise kind of a strange fusion of their immediate, recent-past influences and their singular identifying characteristics. The only meaningful difference with STP is that they came along a few years later, were born into an environment that had already shifted, and ended up in a position where they were able to absorb the full scope of the influence while still being able ride the trend in its first wave. So many great artists throughout history began their careers this way -- aping what's around them at the time and then eventually (quickly in many cases) finding the way those influences roll into their own vision -- and all we remember are their classic songs. It seems like a far smaller deal than people make it out to be.

For my money "Facelift" is the weakest album that any of these bands released that isn't either a reunion album or titled "Lightning Bolt."


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 Post subject: Re: Best of Grunge Tournament: 1991-1996
PostPosted: Sun September 17, 2017 5:10 pm 
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yeah, facelift isn't very good, outside of like 3 songs.

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 Post subject: Re: Best of Grunge Tournament: 1991-1996
PostPosted: Sun September 17, 2017 5:17 pm 
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Oh man I am so glad KD is back

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 Post subject: Re: Best of Grunge Tournament: 1991-1996
PostPosted: Sun September 17, 2017 5:47 pm 
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LoathedVermin72 wrote:
Oh man I am so glad KD is back

A new Mynabirds album will do that to a guy.


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 Post subject: Re: Best of Grunge Tournament: 1991-1996
PostPosted: Sun September 17, 2017 11:39 pm 
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STP is one of the bests band from that era for sure....their later albums are as strong as anything they did before. Tiny Music is such a perfect pop album.

Im not sure which of these bands i like the least. Maybe none of them. I dont listen to them all the time, sometimes its PJ and SG, sometimes its Alice, Nirvana or STP...the same with Mudhoney, Melvins or Screaming Trees. Maybe thats why i always come back to them.

Yeah, i agree that maybe Facelift is the weak link here.

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 Post subject: Re: Best of Grunge Tournament: 1991-1996
PostPosted: Mon September 18, 2017 2:07 am 
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Hi KD :wave:

Nice thoughts.

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 Post subject: Re: Best of Grunge Tournament: 1991-1996
PostPosted: Mon September 18, 2017 2:09 am 
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I love a good KD post. I don't agree with some of it but I like it anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Best of Grunge Tournament: 1991-1996
PostPosted: Mon September 18, 2017 9:42 pm 
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im looking 1-7 today.

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 Post subject: Re: Best of Grunge Tournament: 1991-1996
PostPosted: Tue September 19, 2017 2:43 am 
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In the interests of this tourney, over the past 24 hrs I've spun Sap, Dirt, Facelift, In Utero and our very BIH's SG car mix.


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 Post subject: Re: Best of Grunge Tournament: 1991-1996
PostPosted: Tue September 19, 2017 10:38 am 
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almost all the results of last round sucked, RM. This time I expect you to do better


Also, I'll need a video assist today (and tomorrow).

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 Post subject: Re: Best of Grunge Tournament: 1991-1996
PostPosted: Tue September 19, 2017 7:11 pm 
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I agree that Facelift is the worst album in this tournament. Even No Code is better as a whole. Facelift is just the first 4 or 5 songs and a bunch of boring early 90's metal tunes to me, and I usually like early 90's metal.


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 Post subject: Re: Best of Grunge Tournament: 1991-1996
PostPosted: Tue September 19, 2017 7:50 pm 
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stip, i trust we'll get our full meal of rankings in due time? guitarists, vocalists, albums, etc?

I'm starting to itch.

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 Post subject: Re: Best of Grunge Tournament: 1991-1996
PostPosted: Tue September 19, 2017 8:16 pm 
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just keep edging

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 Post subject: Re: Best of Grunge Tournament: 1991-1996
PostPosted: Tue September 19, 2017 8:23 pm 
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Jammer XCI wrote:
I agree that Facelift is the worst album in this tournament. Even No Code is better as a whole. Facelift is just the first 4 or 5 songs and a bunch of boring early 90's metal tunes to me, and I usually like early 90's metal.

WTH man

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 Post subject: Re: Best of Grunge Tournament: 1991-1996
PostPosted: Tue September 19, 2017 8:26 pm 
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LoathedVermin72 wrote:
Jammer XCI wrote:
I agree that Facelift is the worst album in this tournament. Even No Code is better as a whole. Facelift is just the first 4 or 5 songs and a bunch of boring early 90's metal tunes to me, and I usually like early 90's metal.

WTH man

This isn't a new revelation. Jammer talks about hating No Code all the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Best of Grunge Tournament: 1991-1996
PostPosted: Tue September 19, 2017 8:35 pm 
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PHATJ wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
Jammer XCI wrote:
I agree that Facelift is the worst album in this tournament. Even No Code is better as a whole. Facelift is just the first 4 or 5 songs and a bunch of boring early 90's metal tunes to me, and I usually like early 90's metal.

WTH man

This isn't a new revelation. Jammer talks about hating No Code all the time.


No Code is largely boring to me and a lot of Pearl Jam's "bold new directions" songs on it (Smile, Off He Goes, In My Tree, etc.) just aren't my thing at all. Hail Hail, Red Mosquito and Present Tense are still awesome though.

I would put every 90's PJ album and even Riot Act over it, it's still better than anything after that though.


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