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Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 9:32 pm Posts: 31614 Location: Garbage Dump
I think McP's It's a Wonderful Life analogy is insightful because it illustrates that the problem isn't that it's believable that these things happen to Han, but that he seems to forget the lessons he supposedly learned throughout the OT when they do. Okay, so even allowing that "shit happens," that doesn't mean you have to just revert to who you used to be when you're faced with adversity. The problem isn't that bad things happened - the problem is that the bad things undid his growth as a person. And that's a shitty message.
Joined: Thu December 13, 2012 6:31 pm Posts: 39468
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
Strat wrote:
Geezes christ. He is still a hero. He's all those things. I dont get how you can say he completely through away all of his growth? he ended up, once again, being a fucking hero.
His growth wasn't just becoming a hero. His growth was becoming less of a cynic, and, finally, finding a home.
And then his home was destroyed and he spends the end of his arc trying to help his son and his mentee return to and find their own homes. I think that wraps things up beautifully.
I think in order to sell your point you guys are really exaggerating how bad Han was in the past and how drastic his transformation was. It's funny to read but not really accurate.
Joined: Thu December 13, 2012 6:31 pm Posts: 39468
In the end it separates him from Leia, reconciliation aside, but his ROLE in the new movies reflects the growth he had in the OT. There is no way he does what he does for the new characters without that arc from the originals. Don't confuse his profession with his character.
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 9:32 pm Posts: 31614 Location: Garbage Dump
stip wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
Strat wrote:
Geezes christ. He is still a hero. He's all those things. I dont get how you can say he completely through away all of his growth? he ended up, once again, being a fucking hero.
His growth wasn't just becoming a hero. His growth was becoming less of a cynic, and, finally, finding a home.
And then his home was destroyed and he spends the end of his arc trying to help his son and his mentee return to and find their own homes. I think that wraps things up beautifully.
Yeah, except apparently his relationship with Leia was worthless. And he had no problem just putzing around the galaxy with Chewie for God-knows-how-long before this movie.
Geezes christ. He is still a hero. He's all those things. I dont get how you can say he completely through away all of his growth? he ended up, once again, being a fucking hero.
His growth wasn't just becoming a hero. His growth was becoming less of a cynic, and, finally, finding a home.
And then his home was destroyed and he spends the end of his arc trying to help his son and his mentee return to and find their own homes. I think that wraps things up beautifully.
Yeah, except apparently his relationship with Leia was worthless. And he had no problem just putzing around the galaxy with Chewie for God-knows-how-long before this movie.
Ugh.
You make exceptionally large leaps for someone who apparently also doesnt want everything explained to him.
My point is nothing in TFA undermines the character that was and is Han Solo.
And my point is that the starting point of where Solo is in TFA absolutely undermines the message of his arc in the OT. At the end of ROTJ, his arc says, "If you lower your wall of cynicism and let people in, you can find your home/happiness/love." At the end of TFA, his arc now says, "Oh, but then that home will get destroyed and you will be killed by the offspring of your newfound happiness."
so he found a home and let his walls down. He probably spends many happy years with Leia until his progeny, a direct result of his love with Leia, tears down the happiness that he thought he had found, so he regresses. Him and Leia agree they both went back to the only thing they were ever good at because they are dealing with the horribleness of their child being an instrument of what they have always been fighting against. That's a totally believable arc, imo.
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 9:32 pm Posts: 31614 Location: Garbage Dump
Mecca wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
Strat wrote:
My point is nothing in TFA undermines the character that was and is Han Solo.
And my point is that the starting point of where Solo is in TFA absolutely undermines the message of his arc in the OT. At the end of ROTJ, his arc says, "If you lower your wall of cynicism and let people in, you can find your home/happiness/love." At the end of TFA, his arc now says, "Oh, but then that home will get destroyed and you will be killed by the offspring of your newfound happiness."
so he found a home and let his walls down. He probably spends many happy years with Leia until his progeny, a direct result of his love with Leia, tears down the happiness that he thought he had found, so he regresses. Him and Leia agree they both went back to the only thing they were ever good at because they are dealing with the horribleness of their child being an instrument of what they have always been fighting against. That's a totally believable arc, imo.
Yes. That's what I said happened. Again, my problem has nothing to do with whether or not any of this is "believable."
My point is nothing in TFA undermines the character that was and is Han Solo.
And my point is that the starting point of where Solo is in TFA absolutely undermines the message of his arc in the OT. At the end of ROTJ, his arc says, "If you lower your wall of cynicism and let people in, you can find your home/happiness/love." At the end of TFA, his arc now says, "Oh, but then that home will get destroyed and you will be killed by the offspring of your newfound happiness."
so he found a home and let his walls down. He probably spends many happy years with Leia until his progeny, a direct result of his love with Leia, tears down the happiness that he thought he had found, so he regresses. Him and Leia agree they both went back to the only thing they were ever good at because they are dealing with the horribleness of their child being an instrument of what they have always been fighting against. That's a totally believable arc, imo.
Yes. That's what I said happened. Again, my problem has nothing to do with whether or not any of this is "believable."
So you assumed, after Jedi, that han all of a sudden turned into a stay at home dad so in love with his wife that nothing could ever go wrong with their marriage?
My point is nothing in TFA undermines the character that was and is Han Solo.
And my point is that the starting point of where Solo is in TFA absolutely undermines the message of his arc in the OT. At the end of ROTJ, his arc says, "If you lower your wall of cynicism and let people in, you can find your home/happiness/love." At the end of TFA, his arc now says, "Oh, but then that home will get destroyed and you will be killed by the offspring of your newfound happiness."
so he found a home and let his walls down. He probably spends many happy years with Leia until his progeny, a direct result of his love with Leia, tears down the happiness that he thought he had found, so he regresses. Him and Leia agree they both went back to the only thing they were ever good at because they are dealing with the horribleness of their child being an instrument of what they have always been fighting against. That's a totally believable arc, imo.
Yes. That's what I said happened. Again, my problem has nothing to do with whether or not any of this is "believable."
your problem is that it shits all over his growth from the OT?
Han went from a guy who smuggled cargo for some unsavory characters, then made friends with Luke and fell for his sister. There was no great awakening for Han. Then things went south and he went back to moving cargo as opposed to....what should he have been doing? It seems odd to think a good plot point would feature a domesticated Han spouting the importance of the force and a good government for the people. Unless I missed the part where he was trafficking sex slaves I don't see how bad Han was...then was redeemed...then went horribly wrong again.
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 9:32 pm Posts: 31614 Location: Garbage Dump
Mecca wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
Mecca wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
Strat wrote:
My point is nothing in TFA undermines the character that was and is Han Solo.
And my point is that the starting point of where Solo is in TFA absolutely undermines the message of his arc in the OT. At the end of ROTJ, his arc says, "If you lower your wall of cynicism and let people in, you can find your home/happiness/love." At the end of TFA, his arc now says, "Oh, but then that home will get destroyed and you will be killed by the offspring of your newfound happiness."
so he found a home and let his walls down. He probably spends many happy years with Leia until his progeny, a direct result of his love with Leia, tears down the happiness that he thought he had found, so he regresses. Him and Leia agree they both went back to the only thing they were ever good at because they are dealing with the horribleness of their child being an instrument of what they have always been fighting against. That's a totally believable arc, imo.
Yes. That's what I said happened. Again, my problem has nothing to do with whether or not any of this is "believable."
your problem is that it shits all over his growth from the OT?
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 9:32 pm Posts: 31614 Location: Garbage Dump
bada wrote:
Han went from a guy who smuggled cargo for some unsavory characters, then made friends with Luke and fell for his sister. There was no great awakening for Han. Then things went south and he went back to moving cargo as opposed to....what should he have been doing? It seems odd to think a good plot point would feature a domesticated Han spouting the importance of the force and a good government for the people. Unless I missed the part where he was trafficking sex slaves I don't see how bad Han was...then was redeemed...then went horribly wrong again.
You guys are thinking about this in much more literal, plot-based terms than I am. I'm concerned with the subtext of his arc. The thematic significance of his growth, and how it's retroactively altered by TFA.
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