The board's server will undergo upgrade maintenance tonight, Nov 5, 2014, beginning approximately around 10 PM ET. Prepare for some possible down time during this process.
Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi -spoilers start 3
Posted: Wed January 17, 2018 3:31 pm
The Master
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 9:32 pm Posts: 31614 Location: Garbage Dump
dimejinky99 wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
Strat wrote:
Lv you called us dense, obtuse, and said we have no basic understanding of how art works
You both are being idiots and ruining the discussion right now. Admit it. Drop it. Move on.
No I did not. I said one particular thing stip said struck me as a dense and obtuse point to make, which I still think. You guys take my criticisms of your arguments personally, even when I don’t intend them to be. dime is the one who kept making this personal. I just wanted to discuss the movies.
I Didn’t get personal at any point. You suddenly start telling us we all should die and I’m a Nazi and should get hit by a train etc. That’s personal.
Ugh. Onwards!!!
You just kept saying useless shit about me like “LV talks out his ass when he talks about SW” without engaging with anything I was saying. How is that not personal?
These new movies actually expand on those themes. Everything pretty much breaks right for our heroes in RoTJ. The only film where there are costs is Empire, all of which are immediately undone (with no lasting impact) by the end of the Jabba sequence in Jedi. What happens if you hit a setback? What happens if you fail? How do you hold onto hope, redemption, becoming a better person when not only are there failures, but you are in some way instrumental in that failure in a deeply personal way.
There is also the democratization of these themes. A New Hope begins with Luke as a farm boy who does great things. Even a small person can change the world and overcome great evil. By the end of Return of the Jedi this is a narrow story about a small group of people who are all related to each other, or their close personal friends. As Rian Johnson said in that piece Dime quoted a few pages back, turns out not everyone can become president. These new stories take us back to the point of a New Hope, which is that everyone can.
In ANH we learn that Luke's family is killed, he is an orphan, he was the son of a great pilot and warrior, he is left with nothing but a mentor (who used to be his old neighbour), and then the mentior is killed in front of him. Leaving him with nothing but his family legacy and his new friends. I would say those costs are about as great as any has faced. However, Luke always faces his fears head on, and does what needs to be done.
You are completely wrong about Return Of The Jedi being narrow. By it being about friends and family, and overcoming the odds, they gave hope to all. They helped liberate all. The new story tells us that even if you do overcome, you are destined to fail in the end anyway.
Completely wrong is a pretty bold statement, Anders.
Regarding ANH - the death of luke's family is treated as a rite of passage. He looks sad for a few moments and then decides to go off and have the adventure he always wanted to have. And while his mentor dies he then starts communicating with him through the force, and is also replaced by another mentor. None of these impacts linger - he shrugs them right off. Nor do they actually deter them from his medium and long term goals.
And they absolutely pale in comparison to seeing on your watch your nephew (entrusted into your care) turn evil, slaughter the other kids entrusted into your care, and then becoming a leader of the next iteration of a fascist empire in the galaxy. This is a new experience, and one that he has a difficult time processing before, in the end, doing what needs to be done.
Regrading RotJ - yes, hope is given to all (Skywalker becomes a legend) but the narrative is one of passivity - greatness comes from greatness - from a practically hereditary elite. That's what is so significant about Rey being no one (or what would have been significant about Luke being no one - although turns out he wasn't, and even in ANH his father was someone important, murdered by the chief villain). It is the difference between experiencing hope through belief in a savior who will come and rescue you, and experiencing hope as being empowered to rescue yourself.
It is really the prequels that reframe the OT as the former. Where hope comes from isn't something that the OT addresses head on.
And the new story doesn't tell us that you always fail in the end anyway. In fact it says the exact opposite - that there are times in our lives we do fail but heroes pick themselves up and move on. there's an entire scene about it, embedded in an entire movie about it.
Our lives end when we die. History ends when we all die. Prior to that they have chapters, and these chapters will contain successes and failures. Emotional growth (and heroism) is about learning how to keep picking yourself up and fighting even when you do fail. And tellingly, both Han and Luke are given the opportunity to powerfully learn that lesson in these new films. So does Leia to that end.
No disrespect intended about you being wrong about what ROTJ is about. But I do feel that you see the OT as something it is not, and that influences a lot of your arguments about TLJ. No matter who is right about the rest, we don’t need the new movies to act as moral compasses towards the OT, that the new movies somehow show a more egalitarian world. Because there was never anything wrong about the message that the OT sent in the first place.
Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi -spoilers start 3
Posted: Wed January 17, 2018 3:39 pm
what on earth am I talking about
Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 12:35 am Posts: 35474
‘Show me again grandfather, the power of the dark side’
So knowing what we do about Snoke, is it safe to assume he was putting visions of Vader into kylos mind to mislead and control him? Snoke as Vader lecturing or even teaching him dark side stuff or even rewiring and warping his mind like some mk ultra stuff to make him more pliable and subservient?
Last edited by dimejinky99 on Wed January 17, 2018 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
what Logan does with Wolverine and Prof X (especially given how days of future past ended) is not at all dissimilar to what the new movies do with the OT characters
That’s funny you see that. I’ve seen that thrown at it as a criticism of Disney just imposing the marvel model on Star Wars and it’s all being formatted and ruined as a result. I don’t see it myself but that comparison with Logan is there for sure.
Hopefully people will soon get tired of endless Marvel movies, all using basically the same formula.
‘Show me again grandfather, the power of the dark side’
So knowing what we do about Snoke, is it safe to assume he was putting visions of Vader into kylos mind to mislead and control him? Snoke as Vader lecturing or even teaching him dark side stuff or even rewiring and warping his mind like some mk ultra stuff to make him more pliable and subservient?
Going by the movies alone, we don’t know much about Snoke. Would like to know more about how Snoke convinced Kylo.
Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi -spoilers start 3
Posted: Wed January 17, 2018 3:49 pm
what on earth am I talking about
Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 12:35 am Posts: 35474
Anders wrote:
dimejinky99 wrote:
stip wrote:
what Logan does with Wolverine and Prof X (especially given how days of future past ended) is not at all dissimilar to what the new movies do with the OT characters
That’s funny you see that. I’ve seen that thrown at it as a criticism of Disney just imposing the marvel model on Star Wars and it’s all being formatted and ruined as a result. I don’t see it myself but that comparison with Logan is there for sure.
Hopefully people will soon get tired of endless Marvel movies, all using basically the same formula.
They kinda do, don’t they? They’re enjoyable enough but it is the same thing over and over.
Thor Ragnarok definitely wasn’t. Wildly funny and a totally different game going on. Really enjoyed that one possibly Because it wasn’t an identikit marvel formula movie.
Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi -spoilers start 3
Posted: Wed January 17, 2018 3:52 pm
what on earth am I talking about
Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 12:35 am Posts: 35474
Anders wrote:
dimejinky99 wrote:
‘Show me again grandfather, the power of the dark side’
So knowing what we do about Snoke, is it safe to assume he was putting visions of Vader into kylos mind to mislead and control him? Snoke as Vader lecturing or even teaching him dark side stuff or even rewiring and warping his mind like some mk ultra stuff to make him more pliable and subservient?
Going by the movies alone, we don’t know much about Snoke. Would like to know more about how Snoke convinced Kylo.
We absolutely need to know how he lured Ben and the other students in. Possibly it was him putting those images in bens mind and Luke seems to suggest as much. But Luke also seems to have been aware of Snoke at that point so was he involved with them at the academy or doing it from a remove?
Leia senses something dark reaching for Ben when he’s in the womb. So Snoke has been ‘watching’ him for a long time.
Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi -spoilers start 3
Posted: Wed January 17, 2018 3:52 pm
Mind Your Tanners
Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 6:03 pm Posts: 9359 Location: Washington State
dimejinky99 wrote:
‘Show me again grandfather, the power of the dark side’
So knowing what we do about Snoke, is it safe to assume he was putting visions of Vader into kylos mind to mislead and control him? Snoke as Vader lecturing or even teaching him dark side stuff or even rewiring and warping his mind like some mk ultra stuff to make him more pliable and subservient?
what Logan does with Wolverine and Prof X (especially given how days of future past ended) is not at all dissimilar to what the new movies do with the OT characters
That’s funny you see that. I’ve seen that thrown at it as a criticism of Disney just imposing the marvel model on Star Wars and it’s all being formatted and ruined as a result. I don’t see it myself but that comparison with Logan is there for sure.
Hopefully people will soon get tired of endless Marvel movies, all using basically the same formula.
They kinda do, don’t they? They’re enjoyable enough but it is the same thing over and over.
Thor Ragnarok definitely wasn’t. Wildly funny and a totally different game going on. Really enjoyed that one possibly Because it wasn’t an identikit marvel formula movie.
Haven’t seen that one yet, but really enjoyed Avengers 1 and Guardians Of The Galaxy 1, and a couple of others.
Don’t feel Star Wars TFA/TLJ is using the Marvel-formula at all though.
what Logan does with Wolverine and Prof X (especially given how days of future past ended) is not at all dissimilar to what the new movies do with the OT characters
That’s funny you see that. I’ve seen that thrown at it as a criticism of Disney just imposing the marvel model on Star Wars and it’s all being formatted and ruined as a result. I don’t see it myself but that comparison with Logan is there for sure.
Hopefully people will soon get tired of endless Marvel movies, all using basically the same formula.
They kinda do, don’t they? They’re enjoyable enough but it is the same thing over and over.
Thor Ragnarok definitely wasn’t. Wildly funny and a totally different game going on. Really enjoyed that one possibly Because it wasn’t an identikit marvel formula movie.
Haven’t seen that one yet, but really enjoyed Avengers 1 and Guardians Of The Galaxy 1, and a couple of others.
Don’t feel Star Wars TFA/TLJ is using the Marvel-formula at all though.
Me either. Star Wars actually kills off major characters and has emotional depth.
Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi -spoilers start 3
Posted: Wed January 17, 2018 4:01 pm
Guys, I am not a moderator! I swear to God! Why does everyone think I'm a moderator?
Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 2:48 pm Posts: 47316
Anders wrote:
dimejinky99 wrote:
stip wrote:
what Logan does with Wolverine and Prof X (especially given how days of future past ended) is not at all dissimilar to what the new movies do with the OT characters
That’s funny you see that. I’ve seen that thrown at it as a criticism of Disney just imposing the marvel model on Star Wars and it’s all being formatted and ruined as a result. I don’t see it myself but that comparison with Logan is there for sure.
Hopefully people will soon get tired of endless Marvel movies, all using basically the same formula.
Soon? That happened for me about 5 marvel movies ago
_________________ Clouuuuds Rolll byyy...BANG BANG BANG BANG
Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi -spoilers start 3
Posted: Wed January 17, 2018 4:02 pm
what on earth am I talking about
Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 12:35 am Posts: 35474
Anders wrote:
dimejinky99 wrote:
Anders wrote:
dimejinky99 wrote:
stip wrote:
what Logan does with Wolverine and Prof X (especially given how days of future past ended) is not at all dissimilar to what the new movies do with the OT characters
That’s funny you see that. I’ve seen that thrown at it as a criticism of Disney just imposing the marvel model on Star Wars and it’s all being formatted and ruined as a result. I don’t see it myself but that comparison with Logan is there for sure.
Hopefully people will soon get tired of endless Marvel movies, all using basically the same formula.
They kinda do, don’t they? They’re enjoyable enough but it is the same thing over and over.
Thor Ragnarok definitely wasn’t. Wildly funny and a totally different game going on. Really enjoyed that one possibly Because it wasn’t an identikit marvel formula movie.
Haven’t seen that one yet, but really enjoyed Avengers 1 and Guardians Of The Galaxy 1, and a couple of others.
Don’t feel Star Wars TFA/TLJ is using the Marvel-formula at all though.
I think you’ll really enjoy it. It turns the humour of GOTG and turns it up to 11 but not at the cost of the story. It’s not making it a parody and it easily could have slipped into that. It’s really enjoyable Give it a spin.
what Logan does with Wolverine and Prof X (especially given how days of future past ended) is not at all dissimilar to what the new movies do with the OT characters
That’s funny you see that. I’ve seen that thrown at it as a criticism of Disney just imposing the marvel model on Star Wars and it’s all being formatted and ruined as a result. I don’t see it myself but that comparison with Logan is there for sure.
Hopefully people will soon get tired of endless Marvel movies, all using basically the same formula.
Soon? That happened for me about 5 marvel movies ago
what Logan does with Wolverine and Prof X (especially given how days of future past ended) is not at all dissimilar to what the new movies do with the OT characters
That’s funny you see that. I’ve seen that thrown at it as a criticism of Disney just imposing the marvel model on Star Wars and it’s all being formatted and ruined as a result. I don’t see it myself but that comparison with Logan is there for sure.
Hopefully people will soon get tired of endless Marvel movies, all using basically the same formula.
Soon? That happened for me about 5 marvel movies ago
Same for me.
They lost me after the first Avengers movie. I still will watch some of them, but they are mostly forgettable.
what Logan does with Wolverine and Prof X (especially given how days of future past ended) is not at all dissimilar to what the new movies do with the OT characters
That’s funny you see that. I’ve seen that thrown at it as a criticism of Disney just imposing the marvel model on Star Wars and it’s all being formatted and ruined as a result. I don’t see it myself but that comparison with Logan is there for sure.
Hopefully people will soon get tired of endless Marvel movies, all using basically the same formula.
They kinda do, don’t they? They’re enjoyable enough but it is the same thing over and over.
Thor Ragnarok definitely wasn’t. Wildly funny and a totally different game going on. Really enjoyed that one possibly Because it wasn’t an identikit marvel formula movie.
Haven’t seen that one yet, but really enjoyed Avengers 1 and Guardians Of The Galaxy 1, and a couple of others.
Don’t feel Star Wars TFA/TLJ is using the Marvel-formula at all though.
I think you’ll really enjoy it. It turns the humour of GOTG and turns it up to 11 but not at the cost of the story. It’s not making it a parody and it easily could have slipped into that. It’s really enjoyable Give it a spin.
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum
