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stip · **Joined:** Thu December 13, 2012 6:31 pm **Posts:** 39839

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

dimejinky99 wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

stip wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

stip wrote:

Anders wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to be bothered by a movie jumping 30 years and completely changing a character. Just chalking it up to “we haven’t seen THIS Luke” without any connective tissue is a bullshit argument. That has to be earned.

True. We learned a lot about him from the OT, and now he has given up on everything he ever was or believed in.

but it is not an arbitrary and capricious decision. It is a perfectly reasonable reaction to the offscreen events (that are detailed in the course of the two movies), and one he works through in the course of the film's narrative.

Yes but the narrative is dumb and inherently contradicts the themes of the OT

It contradicts nothing thematically (that I can think of)The OT states that the rebels won a major victory and Luke redeemed his father. It is easy enough to imply that the war ended but it’s never stated (and that the EU immediately picks up with the war shows that this is a logical follow up). If Episode VII followed 3 year’s later I doubt we would bat an eye. It’s the thirty year gap that ossified that impression

This criticism is not unlike saying LOTR never should have happened because it’s existence undermines the history of the second age (that’s for you, Dime).

Platt is right. The new trilogy (and the prequels, actually) reframe the OT as part of one long multigenerational war. Which is awesome

Let's look at the themes of the OT.

In my view, the whole trilogy is about overcoming. Evolving. Transcending. It's about hope. Change. Possibility. Becoming a better person. Redeeming your flaws. Fighting for what's right. The end of ROTJ gives a beautiful, thematically and emotionally meaningful catharsis to this thematic arc. The war was always metaphorical for what was happening with the characters. It ended when their arcs reached their thematic and personal conclusion.

Coming in later and effectively undoing their ultimate victory and resetting the war for narrative purposes essentially destroys the meaning of the entire arc. By destroying that hope for catharsis that was so vital to the OT, you destroy everything that made SW a meaningful franchise.

Approaching the end of ROTJ with the absurdly literal rationale of "It is easy enough to imply that the war ended but it’s never stated," strikes me as so ridiculously dense and obtuse that I almost wonder how anyone who thinks that could understand any art ever beyond the most basic level of plot. What the fuck more do you need ROTJ to do to explain to you that the war is over other than a massive victory party that concludes the thematic arcs of every character, whose internal struggles have been externalized through this war for three movies? Do you need to watch the Empire and Rebels sign a fucking cease-fire agreement?

Amazing. Every word in that post was wrong.

So shocked you think so, considering you and stip are the same person

I wish I looked like dime!

dimejinky99 · **Joined:** Wed January 02, 2013 12:35 am **Posts:** 35478

I wish I could write like stip!

I don’t know how to say it in a non dismissive sense but you’re talkng out of your ass LV.
You’re completely entitled to that bullshit you just posted but it’s totally wrong and shows you don’t understand what’s happening in Star Wars at all and maybe that’s why you don’t enjoy what this new trilogy is doing.

Ps that pissy post to Strat (who does understand Star wars) earlier was childish and you can do better.

LoathedVermin72 · **Posted:** Wed January 17, 2018 1:32 am

stip wrote:

So lets stick with this theme about overcoming, hope, change, etc. These new movies actually expand on those themes. Everything pretty much breaks right for our heroes in RoTJ. The only film where there are costs is Empire, all of which are immediately undone (with no lasting impact) by the end of the Jabba sequence in Jedi. What happens if you hit a setback? What happens if you fail? How do you hold onto hope, redemption, becoming a better person when not only are there failures, but you are in some way instrumental in that failure in a deeply personal way.

Okay. You can make a movie that deals with failure. But, again, that undermines the hopeful catharsis we got with ROTJ. The OT was never about failure; just the opposite. I'm fine if a new trilogy wants to explore setbacks and failure and whatever, but not at the cost of the meaning of the (far superior) arc we already have.

Quote:

These new films make use of our old characters by having all of them deeply complicit in a failure (the fall of Ben Solo) that is of galactic import and personally shattering. How do they respond? How are they redeemed? What makes it work is that the same people who overcame tremendous external odds also demonstrate that they can do the same internally, and they all end their story (Luke and Han) reaffirming those values and themes after a moment of desolation.

Why do I want this? What is meaningful about this? What does it have to do with anything? We saw them overcome their problems already. It's done. It's over. I don't give a shit what these characters do in the narrative after ROTJ. The narrative set up in ANH is concluded (and perfectly so).

And these characters DON'T overcome now. ROTJ tells us you can improve and transcend and be better and find peace and redemption, no matter who you are. Now those same characters are almost systematically torn down one by one and crushed under the weight a nightmarish new force that effectively communicates personal hope is a lie. What are the implications of that psychologically and thematically? It's thoughtless, cynical destruction of something resonant and meaningful for the sake of emulating a work of art the makers of this new trilogy (and the majority of SW fans) clearly never understood in the first place.

Quote:

There is also the democratization of these themes. A New Hope begins with Luke as a farm boy who does great things. Even a small person can change the world and overcome great evil. By the end of Return of the Jedi this is a narrow story about a small group of people who are all related to each other, or their close personal friends. As Rian Johnson said in that piece Dime quoted a few pages back, turns out not everyone can become president. These new stories take us back to the point of a New Hope, which is that everyone can.

Yeah, except it also says that ultimately it doesn't matter because a new shitshow will just come along to destroy you and everything you care about and have worked for. Cool!

LoathedVermin72 · **Posted:** Wed January 17, 2018 1:33 am

dimejinky99 wrote:

I wish I could write like stip!

I don’t know how to say it in a non dismissive sense but you’re talkng out of your ass LV.
You’re completely entitled to that bullshit you just posted but it’s totally wrong and shows you don’t understand what’s happening in Star Wars at all and maybe that’s why you don’t enjoy what this new trilogy is doing.

Ps that pissy post to Strat (who does understand Star wars) earlier was childish and you can do better.

You're not even giving an argument or counterpoint; you're just saying I'm wrong and you're right. Either offer something constructive or fuck off with this high-horse bullshit, because you're making this discussion needlessly unpleasant.

Strat · **Posted:** Wed January 17, 2018 1:37 am

LV why are you so angry and condescending?

LoathedVermin72 · **Posted:** Wed January 17, 2018 1:39 am

Strat wrote:

LV why are you so angry and condescending?

self-a·ware·ness
ˈˌself əˈwernəs/Submit
noun
conscious knowledge of one's own character, feelings, motives, and desires.
"the process can be painful but it leads to greater self-awareness"

Strat · **Posted:** Wed January 17, 2018 1:42 am

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

Strat wrote:

LV why are you so angry and condescending?

self-a·ware·ness
ˈˌself əˈwernəs/Submit
noun
conscious knowledge of one's own character, feelings, motives, and desires.
"the process can be painful but it leads to greater self-awareness"

I haven't name called. Or called anyone stupid for having a different point. I haven't talked down or assumed that my knowledge of art is better than anyones.

Calm down and talk star wars. Im fine with you not liking the movie and generally love hearing your thoughts but you are super aggressive and angry.

LoathedVermin72 · **Posted:** Wed January 17, 2018 1:43 am

Strat wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

Strat wrote:

LV why are you so angry and condescending?

self-a·ware·ness
ˈˌself əˈwernəs/Submit
noun
conscious knowledge of one's own character, feelings, motives, and desires.
"the process can be painful but it leads to greater self-awareness"

I haven't name called. Or called anyone stupid for having a different point. I haven't talked down or assumed that my knowledge of art is better than anyones.

Calm down and talk star wars. Im fine with you not liking the movie and generally love hearing your thoughts but you are super aggressive and angry.

I was really just referring to your buddy dime, who is by far the most condescending poster in this thread

LoathedVermin72 · **Posted:** Wed January 17, 2018 1:44 am

And I get a little "aggressive" when I talk about movies sometimes because I care about movies. Sue me. I never said anything derogatory to stip.

Strat · **Posted:** Wed January 17, 2018 1:44 am

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

Strat wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

Strat wrote:

LV why are you so angry and condescending?

self-a·ware·ness
ˈˌself əˈwernəs/Submit
noun
conscious knowledge of one's own character, feelings, motives, and desires.
"the process can be painful but it leads to greater self-awareness"

I haven't name called. Or called anyone stupid for having a different point. I haven't talked down or assumed that my knowledge of art is better than anyones.

Calm down and talk star wars. Im fine with you not liking the movie and generally love hearing your thoughts but you are super aggressive and angry.

I was really just referring to your buddy dime, who is by far the most condescending poster in this thread

You're both idiots when you talk to each other. Sign a fucking cease fire already for fucks sake.

LoathedVermin72 · **Posted:** Wed January 17, 2018 1:45 am

Strat wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

Strat wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

Strat wrote:

LV why are you so angry and condescending?

self-a·ware·ness
ˈˌself əˈwernəs/Submit
noun
conscious knowledge of one's own character, feelings, motives, and desires.
"the process can be painful but it leads to greater self-awareness"

I haven't name called. Or called anyone stupid for having a different point. I haven't talked down or assumed that my knowledge of art is better than anyones.

Calm down and talk star wars. Im fine with you not liking the movie and generally love hearing your thoughts but you are super aggressive and angry.

I was really just referring to your buddy dime, who is by far the most condescending poster in this thread

You're both idiots when you talk to each other. Sign a fucking cease fire already for fucks sake.

We've been cool for weeks! Now he's giving me shit again. I didn't say anything to him.

Jorge · **Posted:** Wed January 17, 2018 1:46 am

Gentlemen

Strat · **Posted:** Wed January 17, 2018 1:47 am

Lvime is the new Reylo

LoathedVermin72 · **Posted:** Wed January 17, 2018 1:48 am

As far as I'm concerned, we were totally cool after we finally vented and overtly insulted each other a while back. I really don't want us to start feuding again because I don't think it's fun for anyone.

Strat · **Posted:** Wed January 17, 2018 1:54 am

Ultimately im just super happy there is more star wars. And since there is more star wars...they took the characters to a degree that I find super interesting and exciting to continue on an adventure with them. Nothing in the new trilogy erases (for me) what was accomplished in the original movies.

They are faced with a new challenge through either age or or circumstances that have resonated with me. This new journey of han and leia, and lukes story makes sense to me. Makes absolute perfect sense to me.

And ultimately their new arcs are there to serve our new characters, 2 of which I think are incredibly written and fun to watch.

LoathedVermin72 · **Posted:** Wed January 17, 2018 1:54 am

fuck you idiot

Monkey_Driven · **Posted:** Wed January 17, 2018 1:56 am

As far as I'm concerned Dime and LV are two sides of the same coin and I enjoy their contributions to the board.

Strat · **Posted:** Wed January 17, 2018 1:56 am

Rian took a chance and punted after the safe plays that JJ made and i couldnt be more thrilled with them. I love TFA but there wasn't much meat there for me to chew on. That all changed with the decisions Rian made.

Strat · **Posted:** Wed January 17, 2018 1:57 am

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

fuck you idiot

E my A

dimejinky99 · **Joined:** Wed January 02, 2013 12:35 am **Posts:** 35478

Lv, y ou will be delighted to know the last Jedi and the force awakens are both soon to be available in 4K. Hopefully this increased resolution doesn’t further blind you to what’s actually happening in these films and the arc established over the three trilogies we have to date.

As if that were possible.

I’m only fuckin around with LV but he is totally talking horseshit when he does talk about Star Wars.

Star Wars: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

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