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Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi -spoilers start 3
Posted: Wed January 17, 2018 4:55 pm
The worst
Joined: Thu December 13, 2012 6:31 pm Posts: 38596
Anders wrote:
stip wrote:
Anders wrote:
stip wrote:
These new movies actually expand on those themes. Everything pretty much breaks right for our heroes in RoTJ. The only film where there are costs is Empire, all of which are immediately undone (with no lasting impact) by the end of the Jabba sequence in Jedi. What happens if you hit a setback? What happens if you fail? How do you hold onto hope, redemption, becoming a better person when not only are there failures, but you are in some way instrumental in that failure in a deeply personal way.
There is also the democratization of these themes. A New Hope begins with Luke as a farm boy who does great things. Even a small person can change the world and overcome great evil. By the end of Return of the Jedi this is a narrow story about a small group of people who are all related to each other, or their close personal friends. As Rian Johnson said in that piece Dime quoted a few pages back, turns out not everyone can become president. These new stories take us back to the point of a New Hope, which is that everyone can.
In ANH we learn that Luke's family is killed, he is an orphan, he was the son of a great pilot and warrior, he is left with nothing but a mentor (who used to be his old neighbour), and then the mentior is killed in front of him. Leaving him with nothing but his family legacy and his new friends. I would say those costs are about as great as any has faced. However, Luke always faces his fears head on, and does what needs to be done.
You are completely wrong about Return Of The Jedi being narrow. By it being about friends and family, and overcoming the odds, they gave hope to all. They helped liberate all. The new story tells us that even if you do overcome, you are destined to fail in the end anyway.
Completely wrong is a pretty bold statement, Anders.
Regarding ANH - the death of luke's family is treated as a rite of passage. He looks sad for a few moments and then decides to go off and have the adventure he always wanted to have. And while his mentor dies he then starts communicating with him through the force, and is also replaced by another mentor. None of these impacts linger - he shrugs them right off. Nor do they actually deter them from his medium and long term goals.
And they absolutely pale in comparison to seeing on your watch your nephew (entrusted into your care) turn evil, slaughter the other kids entrusted into your care, and then becoming a leader of the next iteration of a fascist empire in the galaxy. This is a new experience, and one that he has a difficult time processing before, in the end, doing what needs to be done.
Regrading RotJ - yes, hope is given to all (Skywalker becomes a legend) but the narrative is one of passivity - greatness comes from greatness - from a practically hereditary elite. That's what is so significant about Rey being no one (or what would have been significant about Luke being no one - although turns out he wasn't, and even in ANH his father was someone important, murdered by the chief villain). It is the difference between experiencing hope through belief in a savior who will come and rescue you, and experiencing hope as being empowered to rescue yourself.
It is really the prequels that reframe the OT as the former. Where hope comes from isn't something that the OT addresses head on.
And the new story doesn't tell us that you always fail in the end anyway. In fact it says the exact opposite - that there are times in our lives we do fail but heroes pick themselves up and move on. there's an entire scene about it, embedded in an entire movie about it.
Our lives end when we die. History ends when we all die. Prior to that they have chapters, and these chapters will contain successes and failures. Emotional growth (and heroism) is about learning how to keep picking yourself up and fighting even when you do fail. And tellingly, both Han and Luke are given the opportunity to powerfully learn that lesson in these new films. So does Leia to that end.
No disrespect intended about you being wrong about what ROTJ is about. But I do feel that you see the OT as something it is not, and that influences a lot of your arguments about TLJ. No matter who is right about the rest, we don’t need the new movies to act as moral compasses towards the OT, that the new movies somehow show a more egalitarian world. Because there was never anything wrong about the message that the OT sent in the first place.
i dont think i ever said the OT was ‘wrong’. its a different message and i think the new one is more interesting (for a while, anyway), but there isnt anything noxious about the OT messaging
Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi -spoilers start 3
Posted: Wed January 17, 2018 4:59 pm
The worst
Joined: Thu December 13, 2012 6:31 pm Posts: 38596
Anders wrote:
dimejinky99 wrote:
stip wrote:
what Logan does with Wolverine and Prof X (especially given how days of future past ended) is not at all dissimilar to what the new movies do with the OT characters
That’s funny you see that. I’ve seen that thrown at it as a criticism of Disney just imposing the marvel model on Star Wars and it’s all being formatted and ruined as a result. I don’t see it myself but that comparison with Logan is there for sure.
Hopefully people will soon get tired of endless Marvel movies, all using basically the same formula.
at this point marvel is less a formula than a genre of action comedies starring comic characters connected through long form story telling.
but it has nothing to do with star wars - esp since the msjor critique of tlj is detivation from a formula
Post subject: Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi -spoilers start 3
Posted: Wed January 17, 2018 7:05 pm
what on earth am I talking about
Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 12:35 am Posts: 35363
stip wrote:
it implies that rey’s values were formed in reaction to the subconscious memory of her own experiences
Well yeah but she’s just good to begin with and has compassion and empathy. This is part of what Yoda was saying to Luke about her possessing all she needs. Those are central tenets of the Jedi way.
I fully expect him to be upset and disappointed by the film (like R1). But he (like you, Stip) is super articulate about why he feels the way he feels. And I'm looking forward to that far more than whether or not he agrees with me. I almost hope he doesn't, so I can get his perspective on why.
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