Mon January 15, 2018 3:48 pm
Mon January 15, 2018 3:58 pm
Mon January 15, 2018 4:35 pm
Mon January 15, 2018 4:43 pm
Mon January 15, 2018 4:46 pm
durdencommatyler wrote:There is no moment in which Jyn snaps to and becomes CAPITOL J Jyn. R1 doesn't adhere to The Hero's Journey the way the other Star Wars films have and as such there is no single epiphany or moment of change. It's gradual and subtle and it develops throughout her journey.
One of R1's major strengths is it's ability to totally function in the Star Wars universe while eschewing many of the storytelling traditions in favor of tropes/concepts more fitting of the sub-genre it inhabits.
Mon January 15, 2018 4:50 pm
Anders wrote:They both had rough childhoods, with Jyn having the more painful one, with her mother murdered, and her father stolen by war, while Rey can’t remember. They learned to survive more or less on their own. Jyn finally gets a chance for revenge, to undo the bad her father has done, and for true purpose from this quest. All logical.
I don’t understand why Rey wants to help the downtrodden or feels drawn to the resistance. Why does she hate the First Order in the beginning of the movie? That she is looking for a family I can understand and accept.
Mon January 15, 2018 4:55 pm
durdencommatyler wrote:I agree with Stip about Rey. TFA and TLJ do a fantastic job of developing her as a character. But I don't think R1 fails at developing Jyn. It's a different, shorter journey because R1 isn't an orphan/found family story.
There is no moment in which Jyn snaps to and becomes CAPITOL J Jyn. R1 doesn't adhere to The Hero's Journey the way the other Star Wars films have and as such there is no single epiphany or moment of change. It's gradual and subtle and it develops throughout her journey.
One of R1's major strengths is it's ability to totally function in the Star Wars universe while eschewing many of the storytelling traditions in favor of tropes/concepts more fitting of the sub-genre it inhabits.
Mon January 15, 2018 4:56 pm
Mon January 15, 2018 4:59 pm
stip wrote:Anders wrote:They both had rough childhoods, with Jyn having the more painful one, with her mother murdered, and her father stolen by war, while Rey can’t remember. They learned to survive more or less on their own. Jyn finally gets a chance for revenge, to undo the bad her father has done, and for true purpose from this quest. All logical.
I don’t understand why Rey wants to help the downtrodden or feels drawn to the resistance. Why does she hate the First Order in the beginning of the movie? That she is looking for a family I can understand and accept.
She wants to help the downtrodden because it's part of her character, which they clearly show from almost moment one (helping BB8, refusing to sell him for food).
We don't know that she hates The First Order per se (though given her generally lack of tolerance for bullies it makes sense) but the fact that they start actively trying to kill/harm her makes sense. She's more about helping BB8 than hurting TFO at the start.
Mon January 15, 2018 4:59 pm
Mon January 15, 2018 5:02 pm
durdencommatyler wrote:I agree about Blaze and Chirrut. Though, it doesn't bother me per se. Not every character should be or needs to be as completely developed as every other. They are well drawn sketches and add to the overall tone and theme. They are pleasant additions to the film.
Mon January 15, 2018 5:03 pm
stip wrote:durdencommatyler wrote:I agree with Stip about Rey. TFA and TLJ do a fantastic job of developing her as a character. But I don't think R1 fails at developing Jyn. It's a different, shorter journey because R1 isn't an orphan/found family story.
There is no moment in which Jyn snaps to and becomes CAPITOL J Jyn. R1 doesn't adhere to The Hero's Journey the way the other Star Wars films have and as such there is no single epiphany or moment of change. It's gradual and subtle and it develops throughout her journey.
One of R1's major strengths is it's ability to totally function in the Star Wars universe while eschewing many of the storytelling traditions in favor of tropes/concepts more fitting of the sub-genre it inhabits.
That's my issue is that I don't think it's gradual - she wants to help herself and help her father (which makes sense). Later she may want to honor her father's legacy (which also makes sense). But to the point that Jyn, a consummate survivor, engages in what is likely a suicide mission to do so, and with the assistance of the people who, in a previous scene, were established as trying to kill her father (her principle motivator). That's not gradual. There's a huge leap required to get from point A to point B, and we don't see it.
It's not that this can't make sense. It can. But there's a scene that is missing there for me, and it makes Jyn less of a character for me, and more whoever the scene happens to require to advance the plot.
The participation of Cassian in all of this at the end makes total sense within the context of the film, as does Bodhi. Both of them are seeking redemption for their sins and see this as a way to achieve it.
Baze and Chirrut generally lack any meaningful motivation. Both are fairly underwritten characters.
Mon January 15, 2018 5:06 pm
stip wrote:durdencommatyler wrote:I agree about Blaze and Chirrut. Though, it doesn't bother me per se. Not every character should be or needs to be as completely developed as every other. They are well drawn sketches and add to the overall tone and theme. They are pleasant additions to the film.
Fair enough. And again, none of these are dealbreakers. I like R1 a lot, but heir shortcomings as characters are maybe a bit more noticable to me because I'm not quite as drawn to our protagonist. Cassian is well done though, and the work done on Bodhi shows you can do a lot with these sorts of minor supporting characters.
Ben Mendehlson is a fantastic villain. He is just aces in this. Completely believable.
Mon January 15, 2018 5:06 pm
stip wrote:durdencommatyler wrote:I agree about Blaze and Chirrut. Though, it doesn't bother me per se. Not every character should be or needs to be as completely developed as every other. They are well drawn sketches and add to the overall tone and theme. They are pleasant additions to the film.
Fair enough. And again, none of these are dealbreakers. I like R1 a lot, but heir shortcomings as characters are maybe a bit more noticable to me because I'm not quite as drawn to our protagonist. Cassian is well done though, and the work done on Bodhi shows you can do a lot with these sorts of minor supporting characters.
Ben Mendehlson is a fantastic villain. He is just aces in this. Completely believable.
Mon January 15, 2018 5:10 pm
Mon January 15, 2018 5:26 pm
Anders wrote:stip wrote:Anders wrote:They both had rough childhoods, with Jyn having the more painful one, with her mother murdered, and her father stolen by war, while Rey can’t remember. They learned to survive more or less on their own. Jyn finally gets a chance for revenge, to undo the bad her father has done, and for true purpose from this quest. All logical.
I don’t understand why Rey wants to help the downtrodden or feels drawn to the resistance. Why does she hate the First Order in the beginning of the movie? That she is looking for a family I can understand and accept.
She wants to help the downtrodden because it's part of her character, which they clearly show from almost moment one (helping BB8, refusing to sell him for food).
We don't know that she hates The First Order per se (though given her generally lack of tolerance for bullies it makes sense) but the fact that they start actively trying to kill/harm her makes sense. She's more about helping BB8 than hurting TFO at the start.
Although I agree that Rey is pure of heart, you can’t really call BB8 downtrodden, he is a droid. Why would it even be a point to help him unless it was for a greater purpose?
Defending herself from being killed once involved is a given.
Mon January 15, 2018 5:33 pm
stip wrote:Anders wrote:stip wrote:Anders wrote:They both had rough childhoods, with Jyn having the more painful one, with her mother murdered, and her father stolen by war, while Rey can’t remember. They learned to survive more or less on their own. Jyn finally gets a chance for revenge, to undo the bad her father has done, and for true purpose from this quest. All logical.
I don’t understand why Rey wants to help the downtrodden or feels drawn to the resistance. Why does she hate the First Order in the beginning of the movie? That she is looking for a family I can understand and accept.
She wants to help the downtrodden because it's part of her character, which they clearly show from almost moment one (helping BB8, refusing to sell him for food).
We don't know that she hates The First Order per se (though given her generally lack of tolerance for bullies it makes sense) but the fact that they start actively trying to kill/harm her makes sense. She's more about helping BB8 than hurting TFO at the start.
Although I agree that Rey is pure of heart, you can’t really call BB8 downtrodden, he is a droid. Why would it even be a point to help him unless it was for a greater purpose?
Defending herself from being killed once involved is a given.
Droids have personalities and feelings. They feel anxiety and fear and gratitude. They're basically people kept as slaves. Their whole existence is actually kind of troubling, morally
Mon January 15, 2018 5:33 pm
stip wrote:Anders wrote:stip wrote:Anders wrote:They both had rough childhoods, with Jyn having the more painful one, with her mother murdered, and her father stolen by war, while Rey can’t remember. They learned to survive more or less on their own. Jyn finally gets a chance for revenge, to undo the bad her father has done, and for true purpose from this quest. All logical.
I don’t understand why Rey wants to help the downtrodden or feels drawn to the resistance. Why does she hate the First Order in the beginning of the movie? That she is looking for a family I can understand and accept.
She wants to help the downtrodden because it's part of her character, which they clearly show from almost moment one (helping BB8, refusing to sell him for food).
We don't know that she hates The First Order per se (though given her generally lack of tolerance for bullies it makes sense) but the fact that they start actively trying to kill/harm her makes sense. She's more about helping BB8 than hurting TFO at the start.
Although I agree that Rey is pure of heart, you can’t really call BB8 downtrodden, he is a droid. Why would it even be a point to help him unless it was for a greater purpose?
Defending herself from being killed once involved is a given.
Droids have personalities and feelings. They feel anxiety and fear and gratitude. They're basically people kept as slaves. Their whole existence is actually kind of troubling, morally
Mon January 15, 2018 5:53 pm
Anders wrote:stip wrote:Anders wrote:stip wrote:Anders wrote:They both had rough childhoods, with Jyn having the more painful one, with her mother murdered, and her father stolen by war, while Rey can’t remember. They learned to survive more or less on their own. Jyn finally gets a chance for revenge, to undo the bad her father has done, and for true purpose from this quest. All logical.
I don’t understand why Rey wants to help the downtrodden or feels drawn to the resistance. Why does she hate the First Order in the beginning of the movie? That she is looking for a family I can understand and accept.
She wants to help the downtrodden because it's part of her character, which they clearly show from almost moment one (helping BB8, refusing to sell him for food).
We don't know that she hates The First Order per se (though given her generally lack of tolerance for bullies it makes sense) but the fact that they start actively trying to kill/harm her makes sense. She's more about helping BB8 than hurting TFO at the start.
Although I agree that Rey is pure of heart, you can’t really call BB8 downtrodden, he is a droid. Why would it even be a point to help him unless it was for a greater purpose?
Defending herself from being killed once involved is a given.
Droids have personalities and feelings. They feel anxiety and fear and gratitude. They're basically people kept as slaves. Their whole existence is actually kind of troubling, morally
Not sure about this. Is it the same for robots in our world in 2018, or something special from Star Wars?
Mon January 15, 2018 6:12 pm
durdencommatyler wrote:Anders wrote:stip wrote:Anders wrote:stip wrote:Anders wrote:They both had rough childhoods, with Jyn having the more painful one, with her mother murdered, and her father stolen by war, while Rey can’t remember. They learned to survive more or less on their own. Jyn finally gets a chance for revenge, to undo the bad her father has done, and for true purpose from this quest. All logical.
I don’t understand why Rey wants to help the downtrodden or feels drawn to the resistance. Why does she hate the First Order in the beginning of the movie? That she is looking for a family I can understand and accept.
She wants to help the downtrodden because it's part of her character, which they clearly show from almost moment one (helping BB8, refusing to sell him for food).
We don't know that she hates The First Order per se (though given her generally lack of tolerance for bullies it makes sense) but the fact that they start actively trying to kill/harm her makes sense. She's more about helping BB8 than hurting TFO at the start.
Although I agree that Rey is pure of heart, you can’t really call BB8 downtrodden, he is a droid. Why would it even be a point to help him unless it was for a greater purpose?
Defending herself from being killed once involved is a given.
Droids have personalities and feelings. They feel anxiety and fear and gratitude. They're basically people kept as slaves. Their whole existence is actually kind of troubling, morally
Not sure about this. Is it the same for robots in our world in 2018, or something special from Star Wars?
Pretty sure he's talking about Star Wars, not the real world. But I don't want to assume or speak for him. My take on what he's saying is just Star Wars.