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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Fri December 29, 2017 8:39 pm 
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Ach To (again): Porgs have taken over the Falcon. Rey is surprised they can’t get in touch with the Resistance but asks Chewie to keep trying, and find out how Finn is doing. Rey heads back out in the rain and seems almost happy, at peace. Despite her being drawn into the cave she is being trained by Luke, beginning to understand the Force, and through it her place in the world. It’s in this state that she and Kylo connect again.

Kylo again is curious, inquisitive, wondering why the Force is connecting them, Rey is angry, defensive. She taunts him that it is too late, and that she’s found Skywalker (still unaware that his primary power is as a symbol of hope, rather than as a weapon to be used). This is an opening Kylo exploits – anxious to be vindicated. He admits to destroying Luke’s temple, but taunts Rey with the promise of a deeper meaning – a hidden motivation that will justify his actions, and possibly help bridge the gap between them (something Kylo, if not Rey, is clearly looking to do at this point). She calls him a monster, and he owns it, but he was created. The connection breaks, and Rey is disturbed, but at least a little intrigued. Kylo wipes his face to discover that the rain on Ach To has somehow carried across their link (again an important bit of foreshadowing for the final showdown on Crait)

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Fri December 29, 2017 8:51 pm 
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Canto Bight: The conspiracy is launched, as a shuttle leaves the cruiser and someone on the bridge covers.

We lay it on a bit thick here. We start delving into some political themes that a film like Rogue One could have explored a bit, and the main points are fine (and a worthwhile thematic expansion), but we’re a bit too obvious, especially given how subtle the rest of the movie is.

Here is the 1%, lavishly at play while the rest of the galaxy burns. The subtext is that the wealthy and powerful will always come out on top, and are divorced from the struggles of the rest of the galaxy. These are not the allies in the Outer Rim Leia was hoping for. This will not be the kindling the spark of the Resistance ignites.

This is likely Finn’s first exposure to anything outside the military (not counting his brief stints at Maz’s bar or Jakku). The whole sequence feels very prequel insofar as we have some exposure to a galaxy that does things other than fight each other. With the music and the horse racing there’s a 1920s Great Gatsby feel to this (along with an on the nose period musical cue when they find their hacker).

As Rose encourages Finn to look closer he discovers that their wealth comes from dealing arms, and he sees animals and kids being abused for the amusement of the wealthy patrons while Rose describes the way her people were victimized by the First Order. For the first time Finn is confronting the First Order not as a military threat, but as a symptom of something larger, something that rots society from underneath. For the first time in this story Finn is being asked to think in terms of principles that go beyond the safety of himself and his friends. This is one of the character beats that helps justify the existence of Canto Bight, which is the weakest stretch of the film.

BBB discovers their hacker, but before they can go to him they’re arrested by that odd redneck sounding alien for parking where they shouldn’t. I’m generally really into the comedic beats in this movie but this is one of the only ones that doesn’t really land for me. But I enjoy BB8s Chopper moments here – getting fed with quarters (using them as weapons later), the rolling sound he makes when he’s full of them. They’re light, fun antics.

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Fri December 29, 2017 9:29 pm 
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Ach To: Rey is training with her staff, and sees her lightsaber in her pack. She lights it up (the first lightsaber moment is 58 minutes in, which is kind of astounding). Her theme plays, and she gets caught up in the elegance of the weapon and the moment. Luke comes to observe, and what is initially set up as a mentor/pass the torch moment turns slightly sour when Rey cleaves off part of the rock, almost crushing the caretakers below her. Luke fears her power, and the reckless potential within it.

Luke lectures Rey in the meditation chamber, arguing that underneath the Jedi legend is a legacy of failure. It is no surprise that Luke is fixated on this legacy. He is the direct heir to it, and he focuses on the rise of Emperor and the corruption of Anakin underneath their nose. And he’s not wrong, except that he is. The Jedi failed in the end. All things fail in the end (in fact the balance at the heart of the force discussed earlier speaks to this – a cycle of growth – death – decay - growth ). But prior to that the Jedi endured for a thousand generations (tens of thousands of years). This temple has endured that whole time. The legend of the Jedi grew from this strength, this endurance, this legacy. That in the end it faded does not negate what they accomplished.

Luke can’t get past this – the idea that failure is an end – that once you fail you can never recover. That in the process of failure you undo all the previous good of a life well lived. Failure and success are not held in balance with each other. There’s no cycle here. They stand as stark opposites, diametrically opposed and incompatible. It’s not necessarily surprising Luke drew this conclusion. Failure is a harsh lesson, and it is easier to learn from it when there is someone there to guide you, to believe in you, to help you understand that failure is a chance to grow and begin again. And when Luke finally did fail he didn’t have that mentor to help him learn that lesson. And that’s in large measure why he is where he is today.

Rey gets this in a way that Luke doesn’t, perhaps because, unlike Luke, she lived a life full of failure and disappointment. Yes it was a Jedi who created Darth Vader, but as Rey points out, it was a Jedi who saved him. And this conversation , whether Rey knows it yet or not, has her thinking about Kylo Ren another Skywalker in need of saving.

We’ll see where the series goes in Episode IX, but that’s a parallel I hadn’t really thought about before. That the Skywalkers, the alleged redeemers, are all themselves at one point or another in need of redemption. Luke saves Anakin. Rey and Yoda save Luke. Will someone save Kylo?

It is here that Luke opens up about what happened with Kylo. He sensed the power within his ‘mighty Skywalker blood’. He claims that training him was an act of hubris, that it disrupted the balance that existed previously. But again, what Luke is describing as balance here isn’t balance the way it was described earlier. Balance is a cycle of renewal, growth, death, and decay. It is a dynamic process, not a static moment. It is peace, but not peace as an absence of conflict. It is peace that is derived from a system in harmony with itself.

Balance may not be about the relationship between Jedi and Sith, light side and dark side as ways to harness the force. That makes the force about the Jedi, which, as Luke discussed earlier is itself hubris.

Luke tells the story of the training temple (Kylo and a dozen students, at least initially), and it is important to note that the moment where he struggles the most is with the trust Leia put into him – the trust that she would watch over her son. Luke clearly feels that he violated that trust in a deep and personal way, and it isn’t surprising that he might run from Leia after so intimate a betrayal.

Luke continues, speaking of his confrontation with Kylo, who, in Luke’s mind, turned on him, left with some of the students, and killed the others. Leia blamed Snoke, but as Luke admits “It was me. I failed. Because I was Luke Skywalker. Jedi Master. A legend.” It is clear in this line how Luke blames being a legend in his own time for giving him the exaggerated and unearned confidence that he could be a teacher, and it is clear why he runs away from that title now. He isn’t worthy of it, and it can only lead to disaster because of it. That in the end Leia was probably right is irrelevant. Luke believes it.

Rey grasps something important here, as she responds “The galaxy may need a legend.” She is starting to understand the value in the myth of Luke Skywalker and the Jedi Order even if the man himself is letting her down. A legend doesn’t have to be accurate to have meaning. An idea doesn’t have to be true to have power. It just needs to be believed.

She follows this realization with two more personal observations. “I need someone to show me my place in all this” a longing for answers and a place to belong that will drive her towards the cave, and towards a fixation on Kylo’s redemption. And, perhaps because she understands failure, she points out that Luke didn’t fail Kylo. Kylo failed him. Which, as we’ll learn, is a half truth. They failed each other, but that they failed doesn’t make them failures.

She ends with the promise not to fail him. It isn’t yet clear what that means. Fail him as a student? As a Jedi? As someone who can redeem Kylo and through that redeem Luke? Maybe all of it.

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Fri December 29, 2017 9:44 pm 
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Resistance Cruiser: We see the medical frigate run out of fuel, the collapse of the shield and the destruction of the cruiser. The personnel evacuate to the main cruiser, but the loss hits Holdo hard, to say nothing of the rest of the Resistance. They are running out of time, and Poe is getting all the more anxious. Holdo has a brief moment of weakness, but when it is announced they have 6 hours of fuel she tamps it down, puts on her brave face, and urges them to maintain their course.

Godspeed Rebels was an odd final thing to say before dying, since there’s never been any discussion of a god within the Star Wars universe, and we usually get may the force be with you. Maybe that’s just a hard thing to shout out with your dying breath.

Canto Bight: In the prison we get to meet DJ, a mercenary in prison willing to help them carry out their mission. We are immediately primed not to trust him. He looks dirty, he is in prison, he is only willing to help for money (troubling for idealistic crusaders), but they’re drawn to his competence.

DJ meets BB8, who somehow managed to take out and bind the guards. It’s fine. If I wouldn’t complain about Chopper doing it I can’t complain about BB8 doing it.

We get the extend chase scene. This is an overlong scene, but there are a few key character beats. We meet the slave kids who choose to help them go once they see they are part of the Resistance (and Rose gives one her ring). Finn takes satisfaction trashing the town (and freeing the animals, as Rose reminds him- she’s a bit further along this path than Finn) because it’s the right thing to do. We see Rose’s increasing impact on Finn – his gradually awakening to the idea that there are causes bigger than yourself and greater than your own survival. He still understands this negatively – he is motivated by anger and hate rather than love. A desire for revenge more than a desire to help – but he continues to move towards the idea that there are ideas larger than himself and his own survival that he can and should invest in.

We also get a reprise of Finn’s escape ships getting blown up in front of him. I’m sure we’ll get that beat again in Episode 9.

Fortunately, DJ and BB8 show up to save them at the last moment, so the mission is saved.

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Fri December 29, 2017 10:51 pm 
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Ach To (the climax part 1): Luke journeys at night to the meditation rock, and opens himself up to the Force for the first time in years – reaching out to Leia, and it is this contact that awakens Leia from her coma.

Kylo and Rey have their third connection (that we see. One is left with the impression that there have been others) and there is an increasingly easy familiarity between them. Kindred spirits, if not friends – strong in the force, the same teacher, the same feeling of loss and loneliness. The growing realization that each is uniquely situated to understand the other in a way that few others could.

I quite like the opening exchange:

“I’d rather not do this now”
“Yeah, me too”
(plus the ask for him to put on a cowl – which speaks to a growing tension which, if not quite sexual, at least speaks to intimacy).

Rey asks him why he hated his father – which has been the burning question so far. He had a family that loved him and he threw it away. It is all she ever wanted. How could he do that?

The conversation shifts over to parents, framed in terms of inheritance, not legacy. Rey asks for an honest answer and doesn’t doubt his response that he didn’t. Kylo turns this back on Rey – she had parents who abandoned her that she still longs for. That longing is reframed as weakness – holding onto the past in a way that prevents you from moving forward. Kylo didn’t want to kill Han. He had to, in order to become whoever it is he is meant to be. It’s a devastating and destructive answer, but given the constant series of parental betrayals that constitutes his life as he sees it(being shipped off with Luke, Luke failing him, the abusive relationship with Snoke, his complicated relationship with Vader) it isn’t a surprise that he has adopted this frame of reference. If anything it is even more applicable to Rey, who has literally wasted her life until very recently desperately needing the people who abandoned her – afraid to forge a life and place for herself that is independent of her past. Even once she was off Jaku she has been reproducing this same dynamic with the same people who let Kyo down (Han and Luke)

“Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to. It’s the only way you can become who you were meant to be” It’s a powerful line, especially when connected back to Rey’s plaintive need for “someone to show me my place in all this.” It’s also a generational marker – written for younger audiences grappling with a world they didn’t make, full of problems they didn’t cause, full of struggles they didn’t ask for and promises that can’t be kept, that they will have to find a way to answer for. If you are a young person coming into your own in a world where the environment is collapsing, living is more expensive than ever while opportunity is scarcer, the intractable bigotries of past generations dominate politics, and it is up to you to fix it these are ideas that will resonate. Younger audiences need to figure out how to confront the past they inherited. Older audiences with the failure of their legacy. Harsher themes then we may be used to, but potent.

Kylo drops the bombshell that Luke tried to kill Kylo because he sensed and feared his power, as he does with Rey (he’s said as much) which will force a dramatic reframing of their relationship, and drives her closer to Kylo. The way this scene is shot, from Kylo’s memory, Luke looks terrifying - wide eyes, grim determination, lightsaber ready to strike. And Kylo was just a teenager. It’s not just that this explains what drove Kylo away. This eventually gives Rey the justification she needs to aggressively try and redeem him. He is out of balance, and it isn’t his fault. He was unmade, but with her help he can be remade.

Seeking answers, Rey takes her journey to the dark side cave. It’s a visually stunning sequence, but when she asks about her parents and receives her promised answer, she’s shown no one but herself. The message she will ultimately take away is that it doesn’t matter who her parents are – that her future is hers to craft as she sees fit. But after having searched for that answer for so long she feels let down, exposed, vulnerable, lost, hurt, and alone. It is Kylo who tells her that she is not alone, and she opens herself up to Kylo. They are two lost souls searching for meaning, and for the first time Rey feels, in a powerful way, that Kylo is someone who can be redeemed. She extends her hand and he reaches out to take it (a mirror of the scene we’ll see later). They touch, the force theme plays, and it is a powerful connection – the seeds of redemption that will pay off in the throne room sequence.

(as a side note, the way this scene is shot the silhouette approaching the cave wall looks a bit like Kylo Ren, and I half expected it to be him as the other side of the same coin). I don’t know if that was intentional misdirection or not)

Luke breaks the connection in a panic, assuming that Kylo is corrupting Rey, rather than Rey saving Kylo. In anger, both wanting Kylo to have lied and tell the truth, she confronts Luke about what really happened the night Kylo destroyed the temple. Luke tells her to leave the island, banishing her, ending their training, rather than confront what happened – his greatest failure. She forces him to the ground to get an answer, and they have a brief duel with staves. It’s important to note that Luke uses his powers twice during this sequence (once to summon a staff and once to stop himself from falling – his force abilities have been dormant, but they’re still there, and they return to him on instinct. He came to this island to die, but his will for self-preservation is still strong. What happened with Kylo is at the heart of Luke’s internal conflict, and Luke will ultimately emerge from this extended experience reborn).

Luke defeats her, until she summons his/her lightsaber and forces a confession. Luke vocalizes out loud, probably for the first time, his deepest failure. That for a brief moment, confronted with the darkness in Kylo, he briefly gave into the dark side impulse to kill him in his sleep. Easy enough to justify for the greater good, and a complete violation of everything he stands for. Luke had been here before – tempted to kill Vader but ultimately refusing the dark side impulse. He does so again here (the moment passes – a terrible test but one Luke passes. The shame he felt was appropriate, but something he should have learned from). Tragically Kylo opens his eyes at the worst possible time, and in a moment of self defense fully embraces the darkness within him – not out of a lust for power or dominance, but as a buffer against an intimate betrayal.

“And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened by whose master had failed him”

Rey seizes this opening – it wasn’t Kylo’s fault. The conflict within him stems from this moment (not what Luke said, but what she wants to believe). If confronted with an alternative he could be turned. When they touched hands she believes she saw a future where he can make a different choice. She connects this back to the larger story. Saving Kylo is not just a good in itself. By saving Kylo they can stop the First Order, change the balance of the war. “This could be how we win.” Given the fact that Snoke was manipulating this entire relationship I wonder how much of this is Snoke. Does Rey want to turn Kylo because he’s a powerful weapon (echoes of the Emperor, and Snoke’s thinking), or because she wants to save a soul?

There are echoes of Empire here – the promising student rushing off to confront her rival before she is ready against the wishes of her master

Rey offers him back his lightsaber, but Luke turns his eyes away. She offers the intriguing departing line “he’s our last hope” with all the echoes of the OT. The galaxy needs a Skywalker. It needs a Jedi. She has no faith that Luke will rise to meet the burden. The last hope is still a Skywalker, but this time it’s not the hero. It’s the villain, and the hope that the villain can be saved (which we are nicely primed for as an audience We’ve seen this in the OT. We know how it goes down).

Rey leaves and Luke is confronted with another failure – another student lost or killed to the dark side. But, this is a new, raw, open wound. One he’s not hiding from, having just spoken of his true failure, his true shame. And because it is exposed, it can be cured.

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Fri December 29, 2017 10:51 pm 
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Ach To (the climax part 2)

Luke watches her leave ,his face steels with resolve the force theme plays, and luke approaches the tree – lighting a torch, not a lightsaber. He is going to burn down the tree. Frustrated, lost, alone, confronted with his failure, he has no idea what else to do.

But he senses behind him his old teacher, and he turns to greet Master Yoda. He doesn’t look happy to see him. Almost annoyed – one more person to pile on him when he’s at his lowest – to hear about how he’s failed.

Yoda greets old man Luke as “young Skywalker”, which itself is telling. A reminder that Yoda has lived longer, seem more, survived worse – that perhaps his problems may not be as big as they seem.

He confesses that he is going to burn down the tree and texts. But he gets there and his resolve fades. Perhaps it is the rashness of the action (as we saw earlier, there is a part of Luke that still wants to believe). Maybe he can’t imagine committing such an act of sacrilege in front of Yoda. But he hesitates.

Yoda doesn’t. He focuses for a brief moment and calls down a bolt of lightning that sets the tree ablaze (and establishing new possibilities for force ghosts – perhaps this will come up in IX). Luke is horrified that Yoda just followed through on the threat Luke just made (“Do or do not. There is no try”) Yoda laughs at Luke’s confusion in his playful, knowing way – understanding that Luke needs this sort of shock to the system . That no less than Kylo Ren he has to let the past die. He visualizes this through the destruction of the tree (which Yoda recognizes no longer has value as a symbol) but he is really talking about the way Luke is hanging on to his own past – his own failures.

Luke asks aloud if it is time for the Jedi to end. Yoda, more than anyone would be justified in answering. Yoda’s speech patterns work well here, as we get the answer “Time it is” and a pause before he continues “for you to look past a pile of old books.” As Yoda understands (and as Luke understands rationally but cannot feel emotionally) being a jedi is about your relationship with yourself, and balancing yourself within the universe. Finding your place. The texts aren’t necessary and are part of the past that Luke is holding on to. (plus Rey stole them so what wisdom they had she can still access. Luke, interestingly enough, never learns this, so Yoda’s comment that the library contains nothing Rey does not already possess has a sly double meaning that no doubt amused him).

Luke is here, at his most vulnerable. The tree is burned. He directly confronted his failure with Kylo Ren. He just failed Rey. But here, at this moment of absolute failure, he is finally again in the presence of a teacher – someone who can reframe that failure as something to learn from (which Yoda understands better than most). He reminds Luke that the past and future is less important than what he needs to do right now, and that his failures don’t change that need, that responsibility. That Rey can and will learn from his mistakes. That it is not too late for him to learn from his own mistakes. To do what is needed. “Lost Ben Solo, you did. Lose Rey, we must not” . The we is important here. It reconnects Luke to a larger shared history and context. It reminds him that he is not alone, and that the past, properly understood, can be an ally as much as an enemy, since relationships are built on history. It makes the struggle Yoda’s as much as it is Luke’s. And it is not too late.

“Heeded my words not, did you. Pass on what you have learned. Strength, mastery, but weakness, folly, failure, also. Yes, failure, most of all. The greatest teacher failure is.”
Luke, what we are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters.”

I think this is Yoda’s most powerful observation in all of Star Wars, and an epiphany for Luke, as he sits beside Yoda, watching the tree burn, and begins to heal.

It’s an amazing moment, an amazing scene, and the entire extended sequence from the first “I’d rather not do this right now” until the very end is as moving and insightful as Star Wars gets

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Fri December 29, 2017 11:03 pm 
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Hyperspace: Finn, Rose, BB8, and DJ are heading back to the Resistance cruiser. A few important moments on the ship. DJ plays up his mercenary credentials, demanding a deposit for his actions.
“Guys, I want to keep helping. But no something.. no doing”

He demands Rose’s necklace which the audience knows is a dick move, since it’s so important to Rose. Finn refuses but Rose, in tears and willing to sacrifice everything for the Resistence, gives him the necklace.

“Now, I can help.” What an asshole.

Finn goes to confront DJ, to demand that he give Rose back the medallion (Finn is still willing to potentially sacrifice the larger mission for his friends. Loyalty to those he cares about remains his chief virtue). There is the reveal that the ship is not DJ’s, which is itself not all that surprising. But it does allow DJ to demonstrate to Finn that the people he hated on Canto Bight are making their money selling weapons to both the First Order and the Resistance. This is again the sort of point I wish Rogue One spent more time exploring. Here this establishes that the universe is complicated, but given the direction Finn’s arc is trending this isn’t an insight that impacts him in a profound way. It does clarify DJ though, and DJ represents the road not taken for Finn – had he gotten on that freighter in Maz’s cantina and abandoned the struggle.

“Finn, let me learn you something big. It’s all a machine, partner. Live free, don’t join.” This was largely what animated Finn until very recently and what, through the people he cares about and the experiences he has, he is starting to reject.

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sat December 30, 2017 12:45 am 
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I'm out for the rest of the weekend. I'll try to finish this during the week (or next weekend at the latest) for anyone who happens to be reading :)

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sat December 30, 2017 4:33 pm 
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Ooh I been looking forward to this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sat December 30, 2017 5:36 pm 
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stip wrote:
More importantly, we know that he tried to refound the order of Jedi, and that this effort failed when his student and nephew,( one with Skywalker blood and the dark side susceptibility that comes with it) slaughtered most of the students and destroyed the academy.

To be totally fair, we don't KNOW this before The Last Jedi. We can infer it using context clues. But all we KNOW is: "He was training a new generation of Jedi. One boy, an apprentice, turned against him, destroyed it all."

Nowhere is it confirmed that Ben Solo is that "one boy."


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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sat December 30, 2017 5:55 pm 
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we see kylo in the flashback though. was that ever doubted? (real question)

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sat December 30, 2017 6:21 pm 
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Amazing work stip thank you. Really really enjoying reading this.
Two things I think you missed though. Kylo changing the topic away from being asked about han and goin on the offensive. It’s still something he’s hugely torn apart and conflicted over.
And Rey says Leia when he finishes talking and again he changes topic.

Also her parents (I know you’ve yet to get to this). But I think he’s lying to her and trying to break her down and her later admitting they were no one is not her admitting the truth about them, rather she’s admitting her biggest fear about them and letting her own sense deeply buried sense of worthlessness ‘they just threw me away’ come through. He’s worked/wormed his way into her head and trust and almost abuses that by trying to break her with her biggest deepest fear and he succeeds in doing that.

Pure speculation but I really think JJ is going to walk that back and give her the truth about her parents in 9. They don’t have to be of mighty Skywalker or Kenobi origins but even just finding out the truth about them and why they had to leave her would be too much of a huge emotional payoff to let pass by and would give her closure.

Sure it works fine for this film that it’s ok to be nobody and your own value is in yourself. But if 9 truly is the conclusion of all this I can’t see JJ letting that opportunity go by.



Also. When she first enters the cave we hear a girl or woman’s voice that’s not hers, say ‘Rey’. Wtf is that about.

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sat December 30, 2017 6:24 pm 
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stip wrote:
we see kylo in the flashback though. was that ever doubted? (real question)

Yes that is absolutely doubted.

We do not see Kylo in the flashback. Every part of your statement is in dispute at the end of TFA.


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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sat December 30, 2017 6:30 pm 
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durdencommatyler wrote:
stip wrote:
we see kylo in the flashback though. was that ever doubted? (real question)

Yes. We do not see Kylo in the flashback. Every part of your statement is in dispute at the end of TFA.



Unless it turns out that Snoke was also a student in the academy, and he might well have been, luke says he realised how much Snoke had mislead Ben, I’m gonna way Ben is the one being referred to as the one that destroyed the academy.

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sat December 30, 2017 6:31 pm 
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dimejinky99 wrote:
durdencommatyler wrote:
stip wrote:
we see kylo in the flashback though. was that ever doubted? (real question)

Yes. We do not see Kylo in the flashback. Every part of your statement is in dispute at the end of TFA.



Unless it turns out that Snoke was also a student in the academy, and he might well have been, luke says he realised how much Snoke had mislead Ben, I’m gonna way Ben is the one being referred to as the one that destroyed the academy.

We know now, after The Last Jedi, that it was Ben. We did not however know that in TFA, which is what Stip said.


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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sat December 30, 2017 6:35 pm 
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durdencommatyler wrote:
dimejinky99 wrote:
durdencommatyler wrote:
stip wrote:
we see kylo in the flashback though. was that ever doubted? (real question)

Yes. We do not see Kylo in the flashback. Every part of your statement is in dispute at the end of TFA.



Unless it turns out that Snoke was also a student in the academy, and he might well have been, luke says he realised how much Snoke had mislead Ben, I’m gonna way Ben is the one being referred to as the one that destroyed the academy.

We know now, after The Last Jedi, that it was Ben. We did not however know that in TFA, which is what Stip said.



Oh right. That’s some serious hair splitting gate keeping right there Durds :)

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sat December 30, 2017 6:41 pm 
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dimejinky99 wrote:
durdencommatyler wrote:
dimejinky99 wrote:
durdencommatyler wrote:
stip wrote:
we see kylo in the flashback though. was that ever doubted? (real question)

Yes. We do not see Kylo in the flashback. Every part of your statement is in dispute at the end of TFA.



Unless it turns out that Snoke was also a student in the academy, and he might well have been, luke says he realised how much Snoke had mislead Ben, I’m gonna way Ben is the one being referred to as the one that destroyed the academy.

We know now, after The Last Jedi, that it was Ben. We did not however know that in TFA, which is what Stip said.



Oh right. That’s some serious hair splitting gate keeping right there Durds :)

It's the entire premise of this thread, though. If we're beginning with a false or faulty a prior assumption then the rest of the conversation is by definition faulty and flawed logic.

Accuracy and splitting hairs aren't the same thing.

Stip is structuring an argument. The more holes presented in the argument, the less likely people will listen to it. And I want people to listen to it. Because I have a feeling Stip's absolutely right.


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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sat December 30, 2017 6:43 pm 
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durdencommatyler wrote:
stip wrote:
we see kylo in the flashback though. was that ever doubted? (real question)

Yes that is absolutely doubted.

We do not see Kylo in the flashback. Every part of your statement is in dispute at the end of TFA.

standing w those guys in the rain in the wreckage? i think he stabs a dude

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sat December 30, 2017 6:46 pm 
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stip wrote:
durdencommatyler wrote:
stip wrote:
we see kylo in the flashback though. was that ever doubted? (real question)

Yes that is absolutely doubted.

We do not see Kylo in the flashback. Every part of your statement is in dispute at the end of TFA.

standing w those guys in the rain in the wreckage? i think he stabs a dude

We have no idea where that falls in the timeline. We don't know that it takes place at the Jedi Academy. What we see in TLJ even indicates that it is not from that event. We do not know if that is a flashback at all. It could easily be a flashforward. There is no context at all in TFA for that scene.


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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sat December 30, 2017 6:47 pm 
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stip wrote:
durdencommatyler wrote:
stip wrote:
we see kylo in the flashback though. was that ever doubted? (real question)

Yes that is absolutely doubted.

We do not see Kylo in the flashback. Every part of your statement is in dispute at the end of TFA.

standing w those guys in the rain in the wreckage? i think he stabs a dude



Hang on. We absolutely see kylo in the vision. Twice I think.

One of the cooler theories was and it’s backed up now by Rey and kylos link, is that in the moment and in his time, he senses Rey watching him but doesn’t know who she is. That’s why he’s all what girl earlier in the film.

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