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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sat December 30, 2017 6:48 pm 
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dimejinky99 wrote:
stip wrote:
durdencommatyler wrote:
stip wrote:
we see kylo in the flashback though. was that ever doubted? (real question)

Yes that is absolutely doubted.

We do not see Kylo in the flashback. Every part of your statement is in dispute at the end of TFA.

standing w those guys in the rain in the wreckage? i think he stabs a dude



Hang on. We absolutely see kylo in the vision. Twice I think.

One of the cooler theories was and it’s backed up now by Rey and kylos link, is that in the moment and in his time, he senses Rey watching him but doesn’t know who she is. That’s why he’s all what girl earlier in the film.

Context, dime. Context. No one is disputing that we see Kylo.


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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sat December 30, 2017 6:49 pm 
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Durds is right to call me out on this if Im wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sat December 30, 2017 6:55 pm 
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Just to be clear, I'm SUPER excited for this thread. I haven't been able to really read through it yet. But I will. And I can't wait. I just wanted to make all of this clear at the start because I want us all on the same page at the beginning. I'm not saying you're wrong in your assumptions. But we do not know for sure that you are right at the end of The Force Awakens. That's all. You could be right but we should stick to what we absolutely know for certain unless explicitly stated otherwise.


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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sun December 31, 2017 2:09 pm 
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So five friends of mine who hadn't seen TLJ just rewatched The Force Awakens. I asked them what happened to Luke's temple and they all said that Kylo destroyed it. While it is never baldly stated it is so heavily implied that I'll stand by this.

We know Luke trained Ben
We know Ben went bad
We know that Snoke was interested in Ben and converted him
We know the temple was destroyed by a student
We see Ben as Kylo in what is presumed to be a flashback about the destruction of the temple.

It's technically speculation in that if Johnson wanted he could have added another person who destroyed the temple without directly contradicting what came before, but what student would have been powerful enough to do that, and why wouldn't Snoke have seduced him? This stuff could have all been added in, but it's a pretty reasonable assumption I think.

You can strike it though, and I think the rest of what I wrote about Luke's state of mind will still hold.

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sun December 31, 2017 2:47 pm 
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I just heard Scrimshaw point out something cool.
When kylo sees The falcon on Crait. He loses it. That ship as a symbol of everything he wants to be done with in his past. The ship that’s been involved in handing the empire its two biggest defeats and its fathers ship. Han is still haunting him without even being there. He’s ofherwise cool calm collected in a real time battle scenario and that all cracks and he loses it in front of his underlings when he sees it.

Cool little touch.

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sun December 31, 2017 3:11 pm 
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I love how The Falcon has turned into this great weapon against the empire.

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Mon January 01, 2018 12:44 am 
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yeah, why aren't there more crafts like the falcon? seems everything else is either a massive destroyer, a slow shuttle, or a fast little fighter. meanwhile, the falcon can carry a bunch of cargo and passengers, has fantastic maneuverability, plenty of weaponry, and can travel at lightspeed. maybe the FO should've spent some resources on tracking it down on jakku and replicating it; the rest of the galaxy wouldn't stand a chance!


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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Mon January 01, 2018 1:43 am 
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that’s a dime question but I THINK the falcon is heavily modified. plus great pilots

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Wed January 03, 2018 3:50 pm 
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stip wrote:
So five friends of mine who hadn't seen TLJ just rewatched The Force Awakens. I asked them what happened to Luke's temple and they all said that Kylo destroyed it. While it is never baldly stated it is so heavily implied that I'll stand by this.

We know Luke trained Ben
We know Ben went bad
We know that Snoke was interested in Ben and converted him
We know the temple was destroyed by a student
We see Ben as Kylo in what is presumed to be a flashback about the destruction of the temple.

It's technically speculation in that if Johnson wanted he could have added another person who destroyed the temple without directly contradicting what came before, but what student would have been powerful enough to do that, and why wouldn't Snoke have seduced him? This stuff could have all been added in, but it's a pretty reasonable assumption I think.

You can strike it though, and I think the rest of what I wrote about Luke's state of mind will still hold.

Of course. I was only pointing out what we "know" not what we suppose or presume at the end of TFA. Johnson chose to follow through with the most likely scenarios but there was enough left unsaid in TFA that there could have been other answers. TLJ confirmed things that we thought we true but it could just as easily have subverted those things as well. It just so happens that it didn't.

But I'll still fight tooth and nail about that "Force Back" scene with Kylo and what we can only guess are The Knights of Ren. We have no context at all for that flash. And TLJ seems to strongly imply that that isn't from the Temple burning. Again, it could be. But at the end of TLJ we do not KNOW that it is. And it could just as easily be something totally different.


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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sat January 06, 2018 1:54 pm 
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okay, here we go

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sat January 06, 2018 2:24 pm 
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Resistance cruiser: Snoke’s Dreadnought destroys the last of the support cruisers as we watch the escape pods make their way to the Resistence cruiser (fun fact – it is named the Raddis (sp?) after the Mon Calmari admiral who leads the assault on Scarif during Rogue 1). It’s also worth pointing out that the final ship destroyed is the same style of ship we see fleeing the Empire during the opening sequence of A New Hope. But to clarify the raised stakes, the Empire was looking to capture that ship and take prisoners. This is a fight for survival. No prisoners, no survivors. It's a subtle way to lean into and take advantage of existing Star Wars symbolism and iconography without beating the audience of the head with it.

Poe is well aware of those stakes as we see him storm the bridge. The older female officer (unattractive, and with a big nose - calling to mind a classical witch) informs him he’s been banned from the bridge (again, it’s not an accident that these officers are all female as it feeds into the deconstruction of Poe’s masculine hero archetype).

“The admiral has banned you from the bridge. Let’s not have a scene.”
“No, lets”

Poe is understandably panicked (moreso than the other officers on the bridge who, while worried, seem to have faith in Holdo). Poe is feeling impotent. He is grounded. He is in the dark. He is waiting for Finn and Rose to execute his plan. He’s a bystander, not controlling the central narrative of the story, and he cannot handle this.

Poe storms into the room and is greeted in a dismissive fashion by Holdo. He gives his big impassioned speech , beseeching Holdo to remind them all that there is hope – though this is as much about Poe reasserting himself as the hero (speaking up for the crew who all seem less beleaguered and distraught than he is) as it is looking for reassurance.

Laura Dern is wonderful in this scene, exuding a long suffering, frustrated but ultimately patient calm. Although Poe is getting in the way, she does understand where he is coming from, as we learn later she does like and respect him. She just understands that he can't provide the leadership the Resistance needs in this moment. Reinforcing the hope theme, and reminding Poe of the fact that she, too, had Leia’s trust she responds with

“When I served under Leia she would say “hope is like the sun. If you only believe in it when you can see it you’ll never make it through the night.” And it is telling that Poe finishes that sentence. It’s a reminder of Leia’s central importance to the Resistance, the fact that Holdo and Poe shared the same mentor, and speaks to the calming presence of Leia – even in absence.

For a moment Poe is satisfied until he sees that the transports are fueling. From Poe’s hero perspective this is cowardice. It is running from a fight, and he calls out Holdo as a coward and a traitor in front of her crew. As an audience we are still primed to side with Poe. We take this as, at best, the last desperate act of a woman who has no ideas, no right to be in command (especially with more capable men like Poe around). At worst, part of us suspects that Holdo might be in league with the First Order. In either case, the way this scene frames our expectations is clear. It is up to heroes like Poe and Finn to save the day with the traditional star wars million to one shot. Holdo is clearly the obstacle that our heroes have to overcome.

On a careful rewatch there are, of course, subtle clues that our expectations will be subverted (I certainly did not pick up on them on the first viewing, where I was wholly swept up in the traditional narrative). When Poe is throwing his (literal) tantrum, disrespecting his senior officer and tossing furniture around security moves to intervene and Holdo holds them back. In the end Holdo simply banishes Poe from the bridge so she can do her work. If she was truly occupying the place in the narrative we would expect Poe would have been arrested, especially after calling her a traitor. We know there is a working stockade on the cruiser because Rose alludes to it earlier in the film.

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sat January 06, 2018 2:47 pm 
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and again, I would welcome discussion as I'm moving through this. It's one of the reasons I'm having a blumpkin this in (relatively) bite sized chunks.

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sat January 06, 2018 2:49 pm 
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Hyperspace: Poe is over the intercom warning Finn that they are running out of time. During the voice over the camera is focused on DJ (with a calculating expression), not Finn. At first we think nothing of this. As we’ll later learn this is where DJ first starts to learn of the Resistance plan. Finn assures Poe they have a codebreaker and they can pull this off – they just need more time.

Poe is resolved. He knows what he needs to do to buy time. He’s not happy about it, but there’s little doubt in his expression. He is worried about whether or not their plan will succeed, but Holdo has no legitimacy. It is time for Poe, the hero, to save the Resistance.

Cut to Rey in the Falcon, prepping an escape pod (the first time we’ve seen what they look like on the Falcon) to go to board Snoke’s ship. She is determined to save Kylo – motivated by both her conviction that he can be saved and that she is the one to do it (certain of a bond between them – and one that is there, but still lacking in form and substance) as well as her disappointment in Luke. Having given up on him, she fully believes that turning Ben is the only hope of the Resistance (and the galaxy).

Note that Rey, like the rest of the galaxy, is still invested in the Skywalker mythos. Some Skywalker needs to save them all. Even though Yoda identified Rey as the galaxy’s best hope, Rey still sees herself as a supporting player in this story. It’s her job to bring the real heroes into the fold (the Skywalkers), not take her place among them. How could she? As she told Luke, she is a no one from nowhere.

Although it hasn’t had any primacy in the narrative we know Rey has conflicted feelings towards Finn, and rather than resolve them in this scene (which would have been a distraction) we have that nice moment where Rey is grasping for what to say, Chewie completes the thought in wookie, and Rey can leave knowing that Chewie knows exactly what to tell him if she doesn’t make it back.

Rey’s exact line is “If you see Finn before I do...” She’s nervous, but it is the nervous energy of one about to undertake a huge and difficult project. She truly doesn’t think she is heading off to die (and doesn’t say goodbye to Chewie). The viewer is left with the impression that Rey, a caretaker, is as concerned with making sure that Finn is told something reassuring, to make sure he is okay, rather than closing out their relationship. This is going to work. She’s seen the future and doesn’t know enough of the force to be suspicious of those visions. She is still learning her powers, and making the mistakes all people do when they are first gifted with the power to do new and great things (relative to what came before) and lack the wisdom that comes from time and experience – learning the limits of those powers (see any grad student teaching their first class, for instance).

The Falcon briefly drops from hyperspace, deposits Rey (who is immediately picked up by the tractor beam in the Dreadnought and is escorted in to land. She waits in her coffin, anxious for her first glimpse of Ben since their confrontation on Starkiller – since her new insight into who he is, and her understanding of this inner conflict. There is an energy between them, a tension that is almost sexual, and you can see that a part of her is as excited as she is nervous. She sees Ben and the look on her face is full of surprise, anticipation, and nerves. It doesn’t turn to resolve (and maybe fear) until Ben, looking trying to look stonefaced but clearly conflicted, walks away and she is left to be cuffed by the Stormtroopers. Neither one of them knows what to expect. In a way this sequence is being framed as a grand romantic gesture, the consequences of which neither party involved can fully appreciate.

Finn, Rose, BB8, and DJ drop out of hyperspace, and we get another demonstration of DJ’s easy confidence as he quickly and casually cloaks their ship and slices a hole in the Dreadnought’s shield so they can board. DJ’s loyalties are in doubt. His abilities shouldn’t be.

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sat January 06, 2018 3:00 pm 
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Resistance Cruiser: Poe is trying one last time to work within the confines of Resistance hierarchy, as he tries to convince Holdo of the need to delay evacuation. Poe has the barely contained calm of someone who is tired of talking to idiots, and Holdo is incredulous, both with the plan and with the fact that, while she is trying to save the Resistance she has to deal with this nonsense.

“So a stormtropper and a who now are doing what?!”

And again, while the audience is prepared to side with Finn, on a rewatch it is clear that Holdo is in the right here. Poe’s plan is ridiculous. Delay the cloaked evacuation of the entire surviving Resistance so a turncoat Stormtrooper, a mechanic, and an unknown and unpaid mercenary can sneak aboard a Star Destroyer, hack into its systems, and disable a tracking beacon (which, as a reminder, the existence of which and the process through which it works is entirely conjecture) so the fleet has a six minute window to jump to hyperspace (upon the conclusion of which they will run out of fuel and be stranded). We know this is the kind of million to one plan that always works in movies, but Holdo is right to think this is ridiculous. It is.

Holdo, furious “You have bet the survival of the Resistance on bad odds and put us all at risk!” Recognizing the increased danger Holdo accelerates the evacuation (implying that, with a bit more time, there may have even been a safer launch point or some advantage to waiting). Poe, with the easy confidence that comes from never knowing doubt, takes this as a cue to lead a mutiny.

Holdo surrenders, with the warning “I hope you understand what you’re doing.” Note the language here. She doesn’t say “I hope you know what you’re doing” which implies that Poe, could potentially be in control of a winnable situation if he executes appropriately. Instead the message is clear (especially with foresight). You’ve made a terrible mistake, and you’re going to need to live with it.

Just to ensure that Poe can’t possibly be construed as villain here, he gives the order to stun, rather than shoot, the officers if they resist.

There is some excellent flat smugness from Poe in this exchange.

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sat January 06, 2018 3:25 pm 
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Throne Room: We see Rey and Ben taking an elevator up to Snoke, Rey in handcuffs, Ben looking deeply conflicted, Rey nervously (but not panicked) reminding Ben that he doesn’t have to do this. She reminds him of his internal conflict, refers to him as Ben (and he is responsive to this, looking at her with an utterly lost look but abandoning the role of captor) and assures him that when they touched hands (which is intended both as a reminder to Ben of their intimacy – when was the last time Ben was touched in an affectionate way – and as a way to further establish in universe that you can physically interact, in a fashion, through these force projections) she saw a future in which Ben does not bow before Snoke, and that he will turn. Rey (and the audience) assume this means he will turn away from the dark side. She leans in, whispering that she’ll help him. It’s a very intimate moment, and with the look she is giving him you half expect them to kiss. But the intimacy should be understood as more spiritual (and perhaps more profound as a result) than sexual – a closeness that is possible only because of the ways they have touched each other’s souls.

Ben is more conflicted here than Rey, and he is weary, tired of being torn in two. He lacks her certainty. There is only one way this story can go for Rey. But Ben is tired of lacking agency, and Rey has forced him to finally make a choice. Is he loyal to Snoke and the dark side of the Skywalker line, or loyal to Rey and the light and the light side of the Skywalker line? And, as we’ll see shortly, there is another option that neither Rey nor the audience can anticipate. Ben whispers back, speaking of what he’s seen of his future, knowing that in the end Rey will be the one to turn, that she’ll stand with him. As we come to find out, they’re both right and they’re both wrong.

The elevator ride ends with Ben telling Rey she saw who her parents were (accessing a memory buried deep in her subconscious, one she has blocked out). It’s an incredibly manipulative thing to say, knowing that he can’t reveal any more at this time, or if he did that it wouldn’t be fair to Rey, as they are about to meet Snoke. But Ben is manipulative. Not in the way Snoke is, as someone who manipulates to sieze power and control people. Ben manipulates out of need, coming from an emotionally stunted place. He needs Rey to heal himself, but from his perspective every relationship he has had in his adult life has been based withholding, based on manipulation, deceit, control. It’s all he knows, and despite his desire to let the past die he is hopelessly bound to it. Ben can best be understood as a child of abuse who inadvertently perpetuates it because he doesn’t know any other way to relate to people.

The segue to the Throne Room is meant to parallel Luke and Vader’s elevator ride up to the Emperor in Return of the Jedi, and this entire extended sequence needs to be understood as taking place entirely in conversation with, and in reaction to, the throne room climax of Jedi. We’ve seen this scene play out before, and subconsciously we know how we expect it to go. Rian Johnson plays masterfully with those expectations throughout, which is why the way this scene ends (with the one option Return of the Jedi never explore) is so surprising and satisfying.

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sat January 06, 2018 3:30 pm 
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(that was an hour and fifteen minutes to cover six minutes of movie. I need some fight scenes)

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sat January 06, 2018 3:33 pm 
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(except all the fight scenes are used to develop characters)

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sat January 06, 2018 3:33 pm 
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(this is such an awesome movie)

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sat January 06, 2018 3:42 pm 
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Throne Room: The elevator stops, and Rey’s expression changes to a grim, almost angry determination. Whether this is because she recognizes how manipulative Ben just was, or that she didn’t actually expect to be face to face with Snoke, or out of hatred and anger towards Snoke it is hard to say. We enter the Throne Room, and see Snoke in a distance.

SNoke’s design and posture is intentional. Whereas the Emperor coils in on himself, Snoke, in his yellow robes, sits casually in his chair, half slumped and waiting to be entertained. He is half playboy, half predator, welcoming two children into his den and preparing to enjoy himself.

Snoke begins by praising Kylo “Well done, my good and faithful apprentice. My faith in you is restored”, and while it is praise, it is backhanded in Snoke’s way, clearly reminding Kylo of his place in the hierarchy, not quite infantalizing him, but coming close. He is speaking to him as one speaks to a child who pleases you. But it also carries with it a threat – a reminder that this faith could be withdrawn at any moment if he ceases to please him. There is a disrespect shown to Kylo that the Emperor never really shows to Vader. While they had a hierarchical relationship, and one was clearly the master/teacher, it was an adult relationship through and through.

Snoke welcomes Rey, practically tenting his fingers, smiling wickedly. He is ready to play a game. Rey looks stonefaced – clearly nervous, but strong and defiant. She knows she is overmatched but she believes that Ben will side with her in the end, and her moral center, her certainty, gives her strength.

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 Post subject: Re: A Guided Tour of The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sat January 06, 2018 3:59 pm 
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Excellent stuff stip. can I send the ones youve done so far onto the lads?
It’s enough to start with.

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