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 Post subject: Old / Alternate Sources: What happened?
PostPosted: Tue January 24, 2017 6:53 pm 
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Over the years I've tried to collect every PJ show out there, albeit not every source of everything. As the band ages and my tastes change it's become less of a priority, but I still love pulling out shows from the pre-official bootleg era on occasion. So recently I was perusing (via the Wayback Machine) the old Hard to Imagine site and I was amazed to discover that a lot of shows had 3, 4, sometimes as many as 8-10 sources.

Case in point:

Quote:
07/02/98 : Riverport Amphitheatre - Maryland Heights, Missouri USA

Core Sound > Sony TCD-D8
Sonic Studios (DSM6S) > PA-6LC3 > Sony TCD-D7
Core Sound Cardioid > Sharp MD-MS702 MiniDisc (14th row, left, beginning of "Black" cut)
Sound Professionals T > Sharp 701 MiniDisc (12th row, left of center)
Core Sound Cardioid > Sony TCD-D8 (center, 5th row, seat 108)
Core Sound > Sony TCD-D8 (center, 5th row, seat 107)
Core Sound > Sony TCD-D8 (center, 10th row, seat 139)
Schoeps CCM-4 > Aerco pre-amp > Sony SBM-1 > Sony TCD-D100 (~20th row, center)
Sony ECM-55b > Sony TCD-D8 (10th row)
Sonic Studios (DSM6) > PA-6LC > Sony WM-D6 (~20th row, center)


My question is: what happened to all of these sources? I know a lot of them never surfaced to begin with, but some of these had to be around. Where did they go? Why did everybody just settle for the SV series (with its numerous digital edits, remastering and occasionally shaky lineage) when there were so many sources out there? Some of them have resurfaced via a few old-school traders over the past few years, but most of what used to be out there is really hard to find.

Was anybody around back then who could shed some light on this?


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 Post subject: Re: Old / Alternate Sources: What happened?
PostPosted: Tue January 24, 2017 6:57 pm 
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You're way more knowledgable about this world than I am, but my recollection from that era is that there were a good number of tapers (myself included) who dabbled because it was easy to do. You'd record a show, maybe just a set, enjoy your tapes for a while, and then move on. I'm willing to bet that for every dedicated archivist/taper out there, there's probably ten different guys who dabbled for a handful of shows and then moved on.


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 Post subject: Re: Old / Alternate Sources: What happened?
PostPosted: Tue January 24, 2017 7:04 pm 
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I would expect that, given how accepted it was. Looking through the sources on Hard to Imagine I'm seeing a lot of Schoeps, AT and other higher-end rigs though, which leads me to believe there were 10-12 tapers going to a lot of shows and taping all of them. Some of those tapers traded out everything or almost everything they taped, but I suspect there are quite a few who rarely or never traded what they taped. That probably accounts for a lot of these sources. I know there's somebody who taped almost every show of the 1998 Australian tour (including the first Brisbane show, currently one of very few shows from the band's classic era to have never surfaced) and never put the shows out.

I'm just wondering what people did with these sources, and how many of them still exist somewhere. The Nirvana community has done really well to organize what was taped and has managed to get almost every recording that exists out into circulation, and very surprising to me that a similar effort wasn't made in the Pearl Jam community, given the depth of obsession that exists in this community.


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 Post subject: Re: Old / Alternate Sources: What happened?
PostPosted: Tue January 24, 2017 8:38 pm 
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I've always been a fan of the SV series. It's a great starting point for someone getting into audience recordings.

The shows that have many sources probably contain some incomplete, poor or chatty sources.

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 Post subject: Re: Old / Alternate Sources: What happened?
PostPosted: Tue January 24, 2017 8:43 pm 
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There are a few traders that have every single source. Demetrios, I think. Dpupenya, maybe.

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 Post subject: Re: Old / Alternate Sources: What happened?
PostPosted: Tue January 24, 2017 8:50 pm 
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I don't think anybody (including those guys) has all the sources Matt's referring to as there simply wasn't an archival mentality among Pearl Jam's fanbase back when it would've been most helpful, eg. 10-15 years ago. The Nirvana community has always been much more organised and focused.


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 Post subject: Re: Old / Alternate Sources: What happened?
PostPosted: Tue January 24, 2017 9:03 pm 
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Plus the Nirvana community have a finite number of shows to find and circulate. Pearl jam is an ongoing concern. Even in this day of official boots, the tapers are still out there sneaking their gear in. :thumbsup:
Personally, I have some shows with multiple sources and usually one is better than the rest so you delete the subpar ones.
I bet emanon and dpup probably have the most complete collections on RM these days.

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 Post subject: Re: Old / Alternate Sources: What happened?
PostPosted: Tue January 24, 2017 9:04 pm 
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CopperTom wrote:
I've always been a fan of the SV series. It's a great starting point for someone getting into audience recordings.

The shows that have many sources probably contain some incomplete, poor or chatty sources.


Undoubtedly true, but just looking at the show I listed above I see several excellent rigs. Mind you, that show has an excellent AUD/ALD Matrix circulating, but it would be nice to hear the other sources too. This cuts to the heart of what I'm wondering: why was it just decided that one source was the superior source, and why have people just ignored the other sources?

I've been glad to see some new sources come out of some classic shows the past few years. For example, the Marc Sounds tape of 6/20/1995 resurfaced last year and is a great tape; a new source of 9/29/1996 surfaced too, and both have been shows I've listened to a lot the past year when the fancy strikes me.


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 Post subject: Re: Old / Alternate Sources: What happened?
PostPosted: Tue January 24, 2017 9:09 pm 
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Also, about the SV series: most of this was put together from 2003 - 2005, it seems. But a lot of these shows have a fairly shaky lineage, with unknown steps, murky DAT sources, patches, etc...it seems like quite a few of the SV shows could use an upgrade or a rethink.


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 Post subject: Re: Old / Alternate Sources: What happened?
PostPosted: Wed January 25, 2017 12:36 am 
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matt reeder wrote:
Also, about the SV series: most of this was put together from 2003 - 2005, it seems. But a lot of these shows have a fairly shaky lineage, with unknown steps, murky DAT sources, patches, etc...it seems like quite a few of the SV shows could use an upgrade or a rethink.


They aren't very good matrixes either. You can't just stick two random sources together "flat" without doing anything to them and expect it to sound good. But I'm sure there are purists out there who like it that way.

And don't forget the SV releases that aren't anything close to what they say they are. ("Melbourne 95 Pre-FM" for example.)

The biggest problem is that once some of these SV matrixes were made, the original sources were tossed. That pisses me off to no end, because it implies that the SV's were intended to be the end-all, and they are far from it.


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 Post subject: Re: Old / Alternate Sources: What happened?
PostPosted: Wed January 25, 2017 1:57 am 
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I don't understand why anyone would ever get rid of the source material. It's baffling.


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 Post subject: Re: Old / Alternate Sources: What happened?
PostPosted: Wed January 25, 2017 2:15 am 
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maybe they contain secrets that would jeopardize the very foundations of this nation


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 Post subject: Re: Old / Alternate Sources: What happened?
PostPosted: Wed January 25, 2017 2:26 am 
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I mean, people have given me an endless rash of shit...especially Nirvana retards...for remastering things. But never once have I deleted an original source. But this SV guy does just that and he still gets fellated on a regular basis.


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 Post subject: Re: Old / Alternate Sources: What happened?
PostPosted: Thu January 26, 2017 12:21 pm 
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There's never a good reason not to include source information either.

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 Post subject: Re: Old / Alternate Sources: What happened?
PostPosted: Thu January 26, 2017 2:48 pm 
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We're you guys around RM when the SVs were created? Did no one protest then? How do you know he got rid of his source material?

SpaceVest come back and be held accountable! Image

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 Post subject: Re: Old / Alternate Sources: What happened?
PostPosted: Thu January 26, 2017 3:28 pm 
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CopperTom wrote:
There's never a good reason not to include source information either.


response details withheld.


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 Post subject: Re: Old / Alternate Sources: What happened?
PostPosted: Thu January 26, 2017 4:41 pm 
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doone wrote:
We're you guys around RM when the SVs were created? Did no one protest then? How do you know he got rid of his source material?

SpaceVest come back and be held accountable! Image

If you really wanted to find out about a source, goto BRY and PM him. He was a nice guy IIRC.

I was pleased with every SV release. I'm still hoping that the SV Goa Club show gets released.

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I think I either need to drink less to become more alert, or more so as not to care.


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 Post subject: Re: Old / Alternate Sources: What happened?
PostPosted: Thu January 26, 2017 8:39 pm 
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I'm not sure it's so much that SV himself ditched the sources, it's that everyone else was satisfied with his matrixes/remasters and saw no reason to keep "inferior" versions anymore. With the passage of time, it's now very difficult to track all those recordings down.


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 Post subject: Re: Old / Alternate Sources: What happened?
PostPosted: Fri January 27, 2017 2:42 am 
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CopperTom wrote:
doone wrote:
We're you guys around RM when the SVs were created? Did no one protest then? How do you know he got rid of his source material?

SpaceVest come back and be held accountable! Image

If you really wanted to find out about a source, goto BRY and PM him. He was a nice guy IIRC.

I was pleased with every SV release. I'm still hoping that the SV Goa Club show gets released.

I too, am happy with the SVs, I'm not the original poster. :lol:

Is BRY still a thing?

I'm not sure what the big deal is, I still have all the other audios I downloaded over the years,the SVs were just another collection.
I'm sure if the OP really wanted, most of the the alternate sources could be had for the price of a HD&P.

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 Post subject: Re: Old / Alternate Sources: What happened?
PostPosted: Fri January 27, 2017 5:35 am 
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Birds in Hell wrote:
I'm not sure it's so much that SV himself ditched the sources, it's that everyone else was satisfied with his matrixes/remasters and saw no reason to keep "inferior" versions anymore. With the passage of time, it's now very difficult to track all those recordings down.


This is exactly what I was complaining about. Most of the SV series is fine, shaky lineage aside for some of the sets. But it was depressing to see so many Schoeps, AT and other high-end tapes on Hard to Imagine and wonder what happened to all of them.


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