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 Post subject: Re: With ten years left...
PostPosted: Sat June 04, 2016 10:51 am 
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At the fear of getting sucked into an endless back-and-forth on this, I'll make my response brief: of course the reasons people provide are subjective, everyone's appreciation or lack thereof for Pearl Jam is subjective. And saying that songs from Backspacer or Lightning Bolt would be better received were they performed or produced like the band's earlier material is both engaging in a pointless hypothetical and a different argument than you made earlier (which was the quality of the songs themselves was no better nor worse)
.
What i said earlier was that the songs at their core weren't better or worse. I didn't talk about production and performances but compositions and arrangements which can vary considerably for the same song.


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 Post subject: Re: With ten years left...
PostPosted: Sat June 04, 2016 11:30 am 
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Last edited by Birds in Hell on Sat June 04, 2016 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: With ten years left...
PostPosted: Sat June 04, 2016 11:37 am 
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Mine wrote:
What i said earlier was that the songs at their core weren't better or worse.

I think you're nuts.

Mine wrote:
I didn't talk about production and performances but compositions and arrangements which can vary considerably for the same song.

When talking about a studio recording, I don't think those things are necessarily easily divisible.


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 Post subject: Re: With ten years left...
PostPosted: Sat June 04, 2016 12:14 pm 
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Birds in Hell wrote:
Mine wrote:
The songs at their core aren't significantly better or worse than they've always been.

They're definitely worse.


I agree, but I also think it's evident that their capacity for putting songs together hasn't escaped them completely. If anything, it's the opposite -- they could stand to unlearn some things, to rediscover some of the mystery of the process. But I think recent PJ records reveal a band who've lost the plot aesthetically more than musically. The nuts and bolts of the songwriting process are still intact.

I really do think O'Brien is a major x-factor.


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 Post subject: Re: With ten years left...
PostPosted: Sat June 04, 2016 12:16 pm 
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Birds in Hell wrote:
Mine wrote:
Birds in Hell wrote:
Mine wrote:
The songs at their core aren't significantly better or worse than they've always been.

They're definitely worse.

What about them is?

Where do I begin?

You really think the songs on Backspacer or Lightning Bolt are, production aside, just as good as those on Vitalogy or No Code or even Binaural?

Not vitalogy, but neither are the songs on no code or binaural

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 Post subject: Re: With ten years left...
PostPosted: Sat June 04, 2016 12:44 pm 
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I think I'd rather the band just release new songs over the next few years. I don't know if I even care about a proper album. Maybe release like 5 or 6 new songs a year "Ole" style. Some may be hits, some may be misses, but getting them in the studio working through ideas together, then releasing them via the 10C or something. Odd are is that I'll just hate another album like the last two, so for me, a proper full album most likely won't do anything except further tarnish what I think of the band nowadays.


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 Post subject: Re: With ten years left...
PostPosted: Sun June 05, 2016 3:13 pm 
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Birds in Hell wrote:
Mine wrote:
What i said earlier was that the songs at their core weren't better or worse.

I think you're nuts.

Mine wrote:
I didn't talk about production and performances but compositions and arrangements which can vary considerably for the same song.

When talking about a studio recording, I don't think those things are necessarily easily divisible.

Just lighten the fuck up.

Regardless of the process itself you can at least roughly differentiate between the skeleton of the song, the arrangement and the production. You can separate the melody, structure, lyrics, a riff, chord progressions (none of which changed drastically on the last 3 records) from the arrangement in detail. Performances and production aren't even particularly relevant here.
It's especially pertinent with Pearl Jam because they describe their process as there being a point when they do a rough version of the songs that they further work on.
It's why people have different opinions about the demo version of Speed Of Sound and the album version. And it's not because of the production, the strength of the song or the performances. It's the arrangement the band gave it that makes for the biggest difference.
Another example of what i'm talking about is Unthought Known a song that needed an arrangement that elevated the build up that is written in the song. But instead of doing that, like they did on In My Tree with the layered arrangement, it "builds" to the piano solo which sounds as if the song crashed into itself when it should have expanded sonically.
When some of them say they wished they could have written better parts for the No Code songs when promoting Lightning Bolt, what they mean is they wish No Code sounded more like the last 2 records do basically. This to me is the main limiting factor because this particular approach they are so fond of very rarely works for them.
What was probably the approach that works best for them is Binaural, another difficult record, which was the closest of each of them doing whatever they pleased with minimum cooperation.

And i've had enough of people here being assholes and insulting me for having opinions that differ from theirs, especially when it's about such trivial topics as Pearl Jam and bloody Lady Gaga.
It's ridiculous how the same discerning listeners with superior understanding of everything pertaining music that were ecstatic at the news Brendan O'Brien was again producing a record with them, started blaming for him for everything that is wrong with the band right after Backspacer was released. Before Backspacer came out it was outrageous to suggest O'Brien may not have been that influential on the 4 records he did with them in the 90's because for the geniuses here it was obvious his influence was essential. Not the only time the connoisseurs were full of shit either
No wonder so many people left the forum or barely post if every time one tries to say something you get attacked because, for some reason, it's terrible to have a differing opinion or just try to discuss something on a fucking forum.
I don't give a shit what people think of my posts but at least i've never insulted or been a jerk to anybody even when some of you were being jerks to me.


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 Post subject: Re: With ten years left...
PostPosted: Sun June 05, 2016 5:45 pm 
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To be fair, there was good precedent for thinking Brendan returning would be a good thing. I still think he produced their two best-sounding albums (No Code and Yield). No one really anticipated the road he'd lead them down (or would be complicit in helping them down).


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 Post subject: Re: With ten years left...
PostPosted: Sun June 05, 2016 5:47 pm 
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Jeez, why is Mine being such a jerk?

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 Post subject: Re: With ten years left...
PostPosted: Sun June 05, 2016 6:21 pm 
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Kevin Davis wrote:
To be fair, there was good precedent for thinking Brendan returning would be a good thing. I still think he produced their two best-sounding albums (No Code and Yield). No one really anticipated the road he'd lead them down (or would be complicit in helping them down).

And I'm pretty sure all of us who were excited to have him back, and credited him for their past success, were pretty reasonable and admitted we were wrong. It wasn't a random inconsistency of opinion, it was an evidence based rejection of a previous held belief.

So fuck you, mate.


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 Post subject: Re: With ten years left...
PostPosted: Sun June 05, 2016 6:29 pm 
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Mine wrote:
Birds in Hell wrote:
Mine wrote:
What i said earlier was that the songs at their core weren't better or worse.

I think you're nuts.

Mine wrote:
I didn't talk about production and performances but compositions and arrangements which can vary considerably for the same song.

When talking about a studio recording, I don't think those things are necessarily easily divisible.

Just lighten the fuck up.

Regardless of the process itself you can at least roughly differentiate between the skeleton of the song, the arrangement and the production. You can separate the melody, structure, lyrics, a riff, chord progressions (none of which changed drastically on the last 3 records) from the arrangement in detail. Performances and production aren't even particularly relevant here.
It's especially pertinent with Pearl Jam because they describe their process as there being a point when they do a rough version of the songs that they further work on.
It's why people have different opinions about the demo version of Speed Of Sound and the album version. And it's not because of the production, the strength of the song or the performances. It's the arrangement the band gave it that makes for the biggest difference.
Another example of what i'm talking about is Unthought Known a song that needed an arrangement that elevated the build up that is written in the song. But instead of doing that, like they did on In My Tree with the layered arrangement, it "builds" to the piano solo which sounds as if the song crashed into itself when it should have expanded sonically.
When some of them say they wished they could have written better parts for the No Code songs when promoting Lightning Bolt, what they mean is they wish No Code sounded more like the last 2 records do basically. This to me is the main limiting factor because this particular approach they are so fond of very rarely works for them.
What was probably the approach that works best for them is Binaural, another difficult record, which was the closest of each of them doing whatever they pleased with minimum cooperation.

And i've had enough of people here being assholes and insulting me for having opinions that differ from theirs, especially when it's about such trivial topics as Pearl Jam and bloody Lady Gaga.
It's ridiculous how the same discerning listeners with superior understanding of everything pertaining music that were ecstatic at the news Brendan O'Brien was again producing a record with them, started blaming for him for everything that is wrong with the band right after Backspacer was released. Before Backspacer came out it was outrageous to suggest O'Brien may not have been that influential on the 4 records he did with them in the 90's because for the geniuses here it was obvious his influence was essential. Not the only time the connoisseurs were full of shit either
No wonder so many people left the forum or barely post if every time one tries to say something you get attacked because, for some reason, it's terrible to have a differing opinion or just try to discuss something on a fucking forum.
I don't give a shit what people think of my posts but at least i've never insulted or been a jerk to anybody even when some of you were being jerks to me.

Just lighten the fuck up.

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 Post subject: Re: With ten years left...
PostPosted: Sun June 05, 2016 8:59 pm 
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I'd like to say "I'll have you know I'm perfectly light" but I ate like a pig all weekend.


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 Post subject: Re: With ten years left...
PostPosted: Sun June 05, 2016 9:03 pm 
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Birds in Hell wrote:
.

What was in the original version of this post? Tell the truth now

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 Post subject: Re: With ten years left...
PostPosted: Sun June 05, 2016 9:12 pm 
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theplatypus wrote:
Birds in Hell wrote:
.

What was in the original version of this post? Tell the truth now

I was on my phone and meant to edit but instead created a new post.


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 Post subject: Re: With ten years left...
PostPosted: Sun June 05, 2016 9:19 pm 
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Birds in Hell wrote:
theplatypus wrote:
Birds in Hell wrote:
.

What was in the original version of this post? Tell the truth now

I was on my phone and meant to edit but instead created a new post.

Or that's what your media relations adviser advised.


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 Post subject: Re: With ten years left...
PostPosted: Sun June 05, 2016 9:24 pm 
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cutuphalfdead wrote:
Kevin Davis wrote:
To be fair, there was good precedent for thinking Brendan returning would be a good thing. I still think he produced their two best-sounding albums (No Code and Yield). No one really anticipated the road he'd lead them down (or would be complicit in helping them down).

And I'm pretty sure all of us who were excited to have him back, and credited him for their past success, were pretty reasonable and admitted we were wrong. It wasn't a random inconsistency of opinion, it was an evidence based rejection of a previous held belief.

So fuck you, mate.

Damn, Pete.


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 Post subject: Re: With ten years left...
PostPosted: Sun June 05, 2016 9:27 pm 
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Mods?

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 Post subject: Re: With ten years left...
PostPosted: Sun June 05, 2016 9:28 pm 
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tommymtcom wrote:
Mods?

fuck you, mate. Lighten the fuck up.

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 Post subject: Re: With ten years left...
PostPosted: Sun June 05, 2016 9:29 pm 
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We all need to lighten up......a massive fucking joint.


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 Post subject: Re: With ten years left...
PostPosted: Sun June 05, 2016 9:43 pm 
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LetMeSleep wrote:
Birds in Hell wrote:
theplatypus wrote:
Birds in Hell wrote:
.

What was in the original version of this post? Tell the truth now

I was on my phone and meant to edit but instead created a new post.

Or that's what your media relations adviser advised.

[POST REDACTED ON LEGAL ADVICE]


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