The board's server will undergo upgrade maintenance tonight, Nov 5, 2014, beginning approximately around 10 PM ET. Prepare for some possible down time during this process.
FAQ    Search

Board index » Watched from the Window ... » Pearl Jam




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 103 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: What is Each Album's Major Flaw?: Ten
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 2:01 am 
Offline
User avatar
10Club Complaint Department
 Profile

Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 1:56 am
Posts: 15230
I agree that Ten's weaknesses can serve its overall build. It's got a really emotionally untempered core, and it matches that to a seemingly-contradictory cathartic love of playing. It's the only Pearl Jam record, and one of the few overall, where the unapologetic joy of playing music sounds on the record like what it feels like to play a song you wrote with a band that's really fucking good. I've been really lucky, in that I've played with some incredibly talented people who would just show up at my house and basically ask "what have you written this week? We've got all night, so let's go." And having that...being able to devote yourself to a purist kind of emotional expression and have an entire room of people who just want to support it because they can and why not...is incredible. I don't think I've ever recovered from it, in a way. I have a harder time expressing myself in regular conversation than I did when I was young. How can you ever possibly put words together that match something that unfiltered and honest? I find I talk less and less, as time goes by, and I write more and more....too much. RM sees that happen. If I just type enough, I'll find the words.

Neither strategy works, though, if you're wondering.

In terms of what keeps it from being great, I'd say that strict purist focus...the one that allows the combination described....allows flashy playing and gleeful musicianship to exist alongside intense emotional directness....but it also limits the range. This album does ONE thing, and it does it really well (cow sounds aside). But it, like Vs, denies itself the creatively free and intellectually curious quality that later records were allowed to have. It's a repository for one big feel...a drop point for empathy and frustration, which are left behind so that the rest of the day can be filled with other things. And to do that well, it can do nothing else.

_________________
Cell Phone Songs



Top
 
 Post subject: Re: What is Each Album's Major Flaw?: Ten
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 2:04 am 
Offline
User avatar
post-structuralist
 Profile

Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 2:22 pm
Posts: 15563
Location: faked by jorge
Buggy wrote:
Example of a poor post:
There are so many things that suck on this album. Track 4, 8 and 9 are terrible and the lyrics for such and such a song a really bad. Not only that, but the cover is stupid.


oh, so very glad buggy included examples

_________________
Dev wrote:
you're delusional. you are a sad sad person. fuck off. you're mentally ill beyond repair. i don't need your shit. dissapear.

Spoiler: show
people change. people stay the same. people are so often disappointing - random PM, person unnamed


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: What is Each Album's Major Flaw?: Ten
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 2:08 am 
Offline
User avatar
The worst
 Profile

Joined: Thu December 13, 2012 6:31 pm
Posts: 31729
do you think they wanted the exploration you get on later albums on Ten (or Vs)? I don't think they did--not that this negates your point or anything. But I think whatever is being expressed on those first two albums (first three, maybe, but Vitalogy is more complicated) HAD to get out--to the point that figuring out a way to express it trumped almost all other considerations. I'm not sure it would have been possible for these songs, at this time, to sound any different than they did

_________________
So many tournaments, so little time


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: What is Each Album's Major Flaw?: Ten
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 2:08 am 
Offline
User avatar
post-structuralist
 Profile

Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 2:22 pm
Posts: 15563
Location: faked by jorge
stip wrote:
Well obviously the album cover.

there's nothing wrong with the album cover, but for the sake of argument, in what way does it being a cover you don't prefer make it a major flaw?

_________________
Dev wrote:
you're delusional. you are a sad sad person. fuck off. you're mentally ill beyond repair. i don't need your shit. dissapear.

Spoiler: show
people change. people stay the same. people are so often disappointing - random PM, person unnamed


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: What is Each Album's Major Flaw?: Ten
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 2:11 am 
Offline
User avatar
"You kids quit having fun with the word filter!"
 Profile

Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 3:35 pm
Posts: 32830
Location: Buenos Aires
The pink bro-five? There's a hoon of a lot wrong with that.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: What is Each Album's Major Flaw?: Ten
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 2:11 am 
Offline
User avatar
The worst
 Profile

Joined: Thu December 13, 2012 6:31 pm
Posts: 31729
Because I think it's pretty silly (and not trying to be) and I'd prefer better artwork on one of my absolute most favorite albums of all time.

_________________
So many tournaments, so little time


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: What is Each Album's Major Flaw?: Ten
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 2:21 am 
Offline
User avatar
post-structuralist
 Profile

Joined: Tue January 01, 2013 2:22 pm
Posts: 15563
Location: faked by jorge
stip wrote:
Because I think it's pretty silly (and not trying to be) and I'd prefer better artwork on one of my absolute most favorite albums of all time.

it wasn't silly when it was released...
look at album covers from whatever time period, certainly there's a ton of 'silly' covers out there that really don't impact the quality of the album at all. I don't think I get the whole - it was silly when it wasn't trying to be - thing, actually.
the album was a product of its time, no? that would include the cover shot they decided to go with, wouldn't it?

and even if it's dumb (as judged by some objective measurement if one exists) I'm not sure it affects the album one way or another.
I'd think of a flaw as something that within the body of music (or maybe within a song) has a detrimental effect on an otherwise solid album - like... i don't know - the overproduction of the songs that everyone seems to notice now? (I never did, but maybe that was a widely held opinion 20 years ago too.)

tl;dr version: ok

_________________
Dev wrote:
you're delusional. you are a sad sad person. fuck off. you're mentally ill beyond repair. i don't need your shit. dissapear.

Spoiler: show
people change. people stay the same. people are so often disappointing - random PM, person unnamed


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: What is Each Album's Major Flaw?: Ten
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 2:31 am 
Offline
User avatar
NEVER STOP JAMMING!
 Profile

Joined: Fri November 15, 2013 6:14 am
Posts: 20602
theplatypus wrote:
There's a hoon

Image

_________________
Self wrote:
I don't know. Maybe it's just not meant to be.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: What is Each Album's Major Flaw?: Ten
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 2:33 am 
Online
User avatar
Mind Your Tanners
 Profile

Joined: Sun September 15, 2013 5:50 am
Posts: 9124
solidarity against 'the man'

came across as genuine at the time

now that the band are apathetic millionaires so the cover looks silly

but to idealistic youths it captured the thrill of counterculture

the real flaw with the picture is, if you look closely, you'll see in the right background an office chair that was left halfway in the shot, allowing the viewer to obtain a sense of scale. Ed's head just barely rises over the top of the back of the chair, so the thrill of imagining that you belong to a social movement is somewhat offset by the realization that all of the members of the band are between 4 and 4.5 feet tall.

_________________
Pollster Rights for All


Last edited by 96583UP on Tue May 06, 2014 2:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 
 Post subject: Re: What is Each Album's Major Flaw?: Ten
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 2:39 am 
Offline
User avatar
NEVER STOP JAMMING!
 Profile

Joined: Fri November 15, 2013 6:14 am
Posts: 20602
McParadigm wrote:
I agree that Ten's weaknesses can serve its overall build. It's got a really emotionally untempered core, and it matches that to a seemingly-contradictory cathartic love of playing. It's the only Pearl Jam record, and one of the few overall, where the unapologetic joy of playing music sounds on the record like what it feels like to play a song you wrote with a band that's really fucking good. I've been really lucky, in that I've played with some incredibly talented people who would just show up at my house and basically ask "what have you written this week? We've got all night, so let's go." And having that...being able to devote yourself to a purist kind of emotional expression and have an entire room of people who just want to support it because they can and why not...is incredible. I don't think I've ever recovered from it, in a way. I have a harder time expressing myself in regular conversation than I did when I was young. How can you ever possibly put words together that match something that unfiltered and honest? I find I talk less and less, as time goes by, and I write more and more....too much. RM sees that happen. If I just type enough, I'll find the words.

Neither strategy works, though, if you're wondering.

In terms of what keeps it from being great, I'd say that strict purist focus...the one that allows the combination described....allows flashy playing and gleeful musicianship to exist alongside intense emotional directness....but it also limits the range. This album does ONE thing, and it does it really well (cow sounds aside). But it, like Vs, denies itself the creatively free and intellectually curious quality that later records were allowed to have. It's a repository for one big feel...a drop point for empathy and frustration, which are left behind so that the rest of the day can be filled with other things. And to do that well, it can do nothing else.


Well put, McP. :thumbsup:

To agree with your point, I think that strict purist, emotionally charged place comes from 5 guys that are unsure if they'll get another real shot at making a record. It's that "We've got one shot, let's try to blow the doors off of this thing. What's our strong suits?" They don't have the success of past records to lean back on and think about, "Ok, what do we really want to try and do with this song, this riff, this progression. How many different ways, or how far, can we stretch this little idea out".

_________________
Self wrote:
I don't know. Maybe it's just not meant to be.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: What is Each Album's Major Flaw?: Ten
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 2:42 am 
Offline
User avatar
F.U.B.A.R
 WWW  Profile

Joined: Wed July 03, 2013 11:21 pm
Posts: 16163
Location: Lft Craquepeau
I always felt it was a muskateers implication on the cover artwork. And, apparently it was:

Source: http://blog.seattlepi.com/guerrillacand ... next-year/

Ament: "The original concept was about really being together as a group and entering into the world of music as a true band...a sort of all-for-one deal."

They weren't quite happy with it at the time though:

Ament: “There were some elements of the original Ten artwork that didn’t turn out the way we had hoped, due to time constraints.

_________________
Rangi Guy wrote:
So skating back to the train station after work today things went wrong.....now my skateboard is at the bottom of the harbour :(


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: What is Each Album's Major Flaw?: Ten
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 2:43 am 
Offline
User avatar
10Club Complaint Department
 Profile

Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 1:56 am
Posts: 15230
I don't believe for a minute that most musicians are that cognizant of their strong suits. The very few who are tend to be Jimmy Page or Paul McCartney...stylistically focused, tightly controlled outputters of high quality music and creativity who are actually at their best when mixed with people who have no cognizant function at all.

Anything remotely good I ever did, I didn't realize it was good until 3 years down the road...and by then it was too late to learn anything from it.

_________________
Cell Phone Songs



Top
 
 Post subject: Re: What is Each Album's Major Flaw?: Ten
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 3:01 am 
Offline
User avatar
NEVER STOP JAMMING!
 Profile

Joined: Fri November 15, 2013 6:14 am
Posts: 20602
McParadigm wrote:
I don't believe for a minute that most musicians are that cognizant of their strong suits. The very few who are tend to be Jimmy Page or Paul McCartney...stylistically focused, tightly controlled outputters of high quality music and creativity who are actually at their best when mixed with people who have no cognizant function at all.

Anything remotely good I ever did, I didn't realize it was good until 3 years down the road...and by then it was too late to learn anything from it.

I wouldn't exactly qualify these guys as "most musicians", but I'm not necessarily disagreeing on your other point. Though, I'd argue that Stone's guitar play is right there at that level. He just didn't have the benefit of hitting the scene 20 years earlier when there was much more of the road ahead of them than in the mirror.

_________________
Self wrote:
I don't know. Maybe it's just not meant to be.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: What is Each Album's Major Flaw?: Ten
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 3:33 am 
Offline
User avatar
Posting (live)
 Profile

Joined: Wed February 06, 2013 2:47 am
Posts: 18907
Location: Hunter
With hindsight the flaw in Ten was it's eagerness to be noticed. As Kaius wrote, It's that "We've got one shot, let's try to blow the doors off of this thing.

The desire to be noticed, to stand tall and hope someone sees you or picks you lead to huge gestures. Huge vocal melodies. Huge solos. Huge lyrics that may be heard but not assuredly so they aren't self conscious like later records.

But as one who loves this album, and I have done for over 22 years, I am not convinced that this is a flaw. Sure it's a hindrance to someone hearing it anew today but it's perfectly fine for me.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: What is Each Album's Major Flaw?: Ten
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 3:39 am 
Offline
User avatar
AnalLog
 Profile

Joined: Wed December 18, 2013 5:27 am
Posts: 1041
Ten has its moments, but it’s near the bottom of the catalog for me. The difference between it and Vs. is that PJ had become a band for Vs. Ten was the product of songs that were (in many cases) pretty much completed, with Ed then adding his vocals/lyrics over the top and trying to find how best to fit in. Given those constraints, it's pretty amazing, but PJ was not really a band yet and it showed. That to me is its major flaw. All that touring for Ten helped. Big time. Playing those songs acoustically on the back of tour busses made for a better band, a real band.

I don’t like the glossy “big” production, but neither did PJ, at least retroactively. I don’t think the remix really did all that much to correct it. The problem was in the tapes or something. Just taking out all that reverb and gloss wasn’t enough to do the trick.

There’s an anthemic quality to the songs that I don’t like. Big choruses, huge drums, overly dramatic guitar swells, solos galore. I find it too commercial. I pretty much agreed with Kurt Cobain’s early assessment of PJ. They were kind of jock-mooks who wore basketball jerseys and stuff like that. They didn’t have one iota of the punk sensibility that they gained shortly thereafter. But punk became the next big thing and PJ jumped quickly onto the bandwagon. I was pretty dismissive of PJ circa Ten’s release. That said, I saw them at Lollapalooza and they slayed. They were an incredibly impressive live band, one that belonged in front of 30,000 people, rather than in small clubs. I gained a lot more respect for them after seeing them live.

Ten has no Abbruzzese, either. A drummer can truly make or break a band. Not always, but Stuart Copeland, John Bonham, Keith Moon, Jimmy Chamberlain, Travis Barker, and Dave Grohl come immediately to mind. Those guys are the keys to the whole sound, in some ways. Abbruzzese gave PJ something that no other drummer ever has or will. That’s why they call it chemistry. It just is. Guns N Roses are a great example of how a drummer can make or break the entire thing. Lose the drummer, lose the sound and the magic. PJ without Abbruzzese will never sound the same, and that also makes Ten lose some points. He would have added something to the album that no one else – however talented -- could replicate.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: What is Each Album's Major Flaw?: Ten
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 5:45 am 
Offline
User avatar
Misplaced My Sponge
 Profile

Joined: Thu January 24, 2013 4:32 am
Posts: 5544
Flaw: Only 11 songs and I had to pay like $40 at the time to get the import version with Wash and Dirty Frank.

Otherwise flawless.

_________________
Red Mosquito: Come for the Pearl Jam discussion, stay for the rampant homosexual innuendo.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: What is Each Album's Major Flaw?: Ten
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 7:06 am 
Offline
User avatar
Posting (live)
 Profile

Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 11:15 pm
Posts: 17760
Location: Seattle, WA
my biggest complaint is that Master/Slave isn't 15+ minutes long


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: What is Each Album's Major Flaw?: Ten
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 11:32 am 
Offline
User avatar
10Club Complaint Department
 Profile

Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 1:56 am
Posts: 15230
And bodysnatcher wins another thread :gomez:

_________________
Cell Phone Songs



Top
 
 Post subject: Re: What is Each Album's Major Flaw?: Ten
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 5:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Posting (live)
 Profile

Joined: Wed January 02, 2013 11:15 pm
Posts: 17760
Location: Seattle, WA
Image


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: What is Each Album's Major Flaw?: Ten
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 7:17 pm 
Offline
Banned from the Pit
 Profile

Joined: Wed April 23, 2014 11:56 am
Posts: 25
The shiny production and Once opening it up. I'm just not a huge fan of that, I think even flow would have been better to open on. The remix version they brought out is awesome though, love the tracks stripped of so much reverb. So many great songs on this lp.


Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 103 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Board index » Watched from the Window ... » Pearl Jam


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
It is currently Thu October 18, 2018 1:00 am