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 Post subject: Re: Post-Riot Act Moneygrab
PostPosted: Tue November 05, 2013 4:10 pm 
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BurtReynolds wrote:
I have a theory: Its not so much about money or artistry. Its about being big enough and relevent enough that Ed can get his message out, and maybe even use the money to support his causes. I really think that's more important to him than music at this point.

Before ST, it was just about screaming as loud and as long as he possibly could, but decided it wasn't working, especially with dwindling record sales. I think he decided to try a different tactic afterwords. He is still just as political, just more savvy about it. Not a fan.
stip wrote:
I think that's probably right, and I would suspect that probably goes beyond Ed.

Pearl Jam really has nothing left to prove. They've made millions of dollars, they've released classic albums, they are considered one of the best live bands around even 20+ years into their career. They've presumably accomplished every goal they ever set for themselves.

I know we all want to continue to relive whatever era in their history we are most attracted to, but I can very easily see, from their perspective, that they would rather be able to do some good for the things they care about. And there is a lot you can say about Bono, but he does a lot of good and he is able to do it BECAUSE he is Bono and because u2 has the reach it does. I'm not sure they're aiming that high, and i don't think they could get there (these guys are terrible self-promoters), but I do think they have mid-tier aspirations to that end


Yeah I think he is very much in the Bono mold. I'm not sure if the rest of the band is the same, but they probably lean that way.

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 Post subject: Re: Post-Riot Act Moneygrab
PostPosted: Tue November 05, 2013 4:13 pm 
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BurtReynolds wrote:
BurtReynolds wrote:
I have a theory: Its not so much about money or artistry. Its about being big enough and relevent enough that Ed can get his message out, and maybe even use the money to support his causes. I really think that's more important to him than music at this point.

Before ST, it was just about screaming as loud and as long as he possibly could, but decided it wasn't working, especially with dwindling record sales. I think he decided to try a different tactic afterwords. He is still just as political, just more savvy about it. Not a fan.
stip wrote:
I think that's probably right, and I would suspect that probably goes beyond Ed.

Pearl Jam really has nothing left to prove. They've made millions of dollars, they've released classic albums, they are considered one of the best live bands around even 20+ years into their career. They've presumably accomplished every goal they ever set for themselves.

I know we all want to continue to relive whatever era in their history we are most attracted to, but I can very easily see, from their perspective, that they would rather be able to do some good for the things they care about. And there is a lot you can say about Bono, but he does a lot of good and he is able to do it BECAUSE he is Bono and because u2 has the reach it does. I'm not sure they're aiming that high, and i don't think they could get there (these guys are terrible self-promoters), but I do think they have mid-tier aspirations to that end


Yeah I think he is very much in the Bono mold. I'm not sure if the rest of the band is the same, but they probably lean that way.



I think Stone knows no one is gonna care about his salmon speeches if not for pearl jam. and pearl jam pays for a lot of skate parks in Montana and helps mike draw attention to Chrons.

Matt is just in it for the money. That greedy bastard was already in one band and then he goes and joins another.

Why?

Spoiler: show
$$$

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 Post subject: Re: Post-Riot Act Moneygrab
PostPosted: Tue November 05, 2013 4:14 pm 
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stip wrote:
Matt is just in it for the money


and the groupies


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 Post subject: Re: Post-Riot Act Moneygrab
PostPosted: Tue November 05, 2013 4:15 pm 
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well sure, but that's all of them

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 Post subject: Re: Post-Riot Act Moneygrab
PostPosted: Tue November 05, 2013 4:21 pm 
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stip wrote:
a lot of binaural is pretty boring though.


Incorrect


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 Post subject: Re: Post-Riot Act Moneygrab
PostPosted: Tue November 05, 2013 4:21 pm 
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IlluminEddie wrote:
harmless wrote:
There is nothing wrong with Binaural and Riot Act at all. They both represented Pearl Jam following Pearl Jam's creative instincts. A lot of the fanbase didn't like them; neither, apparently, does Pearl Jam. That's the problem. They have bad taste. Most of the fanbase has bad taste. It's that simple; they may as well do the money-grab, because not enough people enjoy their very best material.



Not saying there's anything "wrong" with Binaural, Riot Act and S/T. I'm saying they were the band's worst albums. If being creative is writing songs about politics and obsessing over politcal events at shows, then yeh - they were ultra "creative" during those days.

Truth is - I'd think creativity would mean writing songs about a multitude of things.... including a few songs that aren't 100% depressing.


OMG yeah, songs about politics and important social topics are complete shit, right?

Thank fuck they started fighting to get it back again, yeah yeah yeah!

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 Post subject: Re: Post-Riot Act Moneygrab
PostPosted: Tue November 05, 2013 4:21 pm 
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stip wrote:
and not that enjoyable to listen to


Incorrect


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 Post subject: Re: Post-Riot Act Moneygrab
PostPosted: Tue November 05, 2013 4:22 pm 
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stip wrote:
and apparently not that fun to play live


Seemingly correct.


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 Post subject: Re: Post-Riot Act Moneygrab
PostPosted: Tue November 05, 2013 4:22 pm 
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I'm assuming you found the songs about politics on Vs. and Vitalogy boring too, yeah?

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 Post subject: Re: Post-Riot Act Moneygrab
PostPosted: Tue November 05, 2013 4:22 pm 
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stip wrote:
I hope they go back to that


Definitely correct.

You are getting more and more right each time you provide an answer here.

:hooray:


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 Post subject: Re: Post-Riot Act Moneygrab
PostPosted: Tue November 05, 2013 4:24 pm 
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harmless wrote:
stupidmop wrote:
I bet if we start a 'binaural saved my life and makes me think of my dead dog omg its so misundertood what a wonderful time in pearl jam history' campaign, in a couple of years they'll be singing a different tune.

The ' weirdest' song on there is sleight of hand, which seems to be popping up more than usual if anything.


If PJ carry that instinct forward, as well as the instinct to write "Pendulum" et al, we might see better future days after all.


Here's hoping.

I think it may actually happen.

But I'll probably be wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Post-Riot Act Moneygrab
PostPosted: Tue November 05, 2013 4:25 pm 
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harmless wrote:
I would say that *most* of the fan base represented by the 10C would lap up anything they put out, within reason. They'll always revert to the default, "Thanks for all you do, Ten Club!"

Ten Club yes, Pearl Jam not so much. There's a reason there's 10C merch and Pearl Jam merch.


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 Post subject: Re: Post-Riot Act Moneygrab
PostPosted: Tue November 05, 2013 4:29 pm 
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stip wrote:
BurtReynolds wrote:
BurtReynolds wrote:
I have a theory: Its not so much about money or artistry. Its about being big enough and relevent enough that Ed can get his message out, and maybe even use the money to support his causes. I really think that's more important to him than music at this point.

Before ST, it was just about screaming as loud and as long as he possibly could, but decided it wasn't working, especially with dwindling record sales. I think he decided to try a different tactic afterwords. He is still just as political, just more savvy about it. Not a fan.
stip wrote:
I think that's probably right, and I would suspect that probably goes beyond Ed.

Pearl Jam really has nothing left to prove. They've made millions of dollars, they've released classic albums, they are considered one of the best live bands around even 20+ years into their career. They've presumably accomplished every goal they ever set for themselves.

I know we all want to continue to relive whatever era in their history we are most attracted to, but I can very easily see, from their perspective, that they would rather be able to do some good for the things they care about. And there is a lot you can say about Bono, but he does a lot of good and he is able to do it BECAUSE he is Bono and because u2 has the reach it does. I'm not sure they're aiming that high, and i don't think they could get there (these guys are terrible self-promoters), but I do think they have mid-tier aspirations to that end


Yeah I think he is very much in the Bono mold. I'm not sure if the rest of the band is the same, but they probably lean that way.



I think Stone knows no one is gonna care about his salmon speeches if not for pearl jam. and pearl jam pays for a lot of skate parks in Montana and helps mike draw attention to Chrons.

Matt is just in it for the money. That greedy bastard was already in one band and then he goes and joins another.

Why?

Spoiler: show
$$$

You gotta at least give them credit for not using a corporation like Target to distribute their records any more. It's nice that they picked a small label like Universal/EMI this time. I mean it's a sign of them going back to the pre sellout days.


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 Post subject: Re: Post-Riot Act Moneygrab
PostPosted: Tue November 05, 2013 4:29 pm 
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harmless wrote:
IlluminEddie wrote:
harmless wrote:
There is nothing wrong with Binaural and Riot Act at all. They both represented Pearl Jam following Pearl Jam's creative instincts. A lot of the fanbase didn't like them; neither, apparently, does Pearl Jam. That's the problem. They have bad taste. Most of the fanbase has bad taste. It's that simple; they may as well do the money-grab, because not enough people enjoy their very best material.



Not saying there's anything "wrong" with Binaural, Riot Act and S/T. I'm saying they were the band's worst albums. If being creative is writing songs about politics and obsessing over politcal events at shows, then yeh - they were ultra "creative" during those days.

Truth is - I'd think creativity would mean writing songs about a multitude of things.... including a few songs that aren't 100% depressing.


OMG yeah, songs about politics and important social topics are complete shit, right?


I just don't think fans want political advertisements at shows. They see enough of them on TV.

So, anyway, I think songs about important topics aren't shit. I simply think PJ was doing "too many" songs on politics and talking "too much" politics at shows around 2000- 2008'ish. I've explained why already earlier in the thread, debate that if you wish.


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 Post subject: Re: Post-Riot Act Moneygrab
PostPosted: Tue November 05, 2013 4:34 pm 
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Before ST, it was stuff like: getting out the vote and raising awareness and rallying the masses.

At some point it became: The masses are kinda stupid. If people want to overpay for shitty dog collars or listen to nonpolitical songs, fine. They'll just use the money and do it themselves.

They couldn't care less about being called sellouts. THIS IS TOO IMPORTANT, MAN! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!

but me? I say
Spoiler: show

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 Post subject: Re: Post-Riot Act Moneygrab
PostPosted: Tue November 05, 2013 4:37 pm 
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harmless wrote:
I'm assuming you found the songs about politics on Vs. and Vitalogy boring too, yeah?



No, I actually found the songs early in the career quite clever. They were talking "issues" back then. And certainly weren't devoting the heavy majority of albums to one issue.

It's refreshing to see them move away from Ed's OCD obsession with Bush which stemmed from his discomfort with being a Nader supporter. Yet, his new obsession with Barry O shows his complete hypocrisy towards "ISSUES". There's plenty to talk about right now, as you probably know. Yet, what have we heard so far? Nothing. Other than - Barry's gonna shake a little fixin' on it.

Ed is and always will be a complete hypocrite in boatloads of ways. But, that's ok. Not being an open-minded, critical thinker doesn't take away the fact that he's a great singer, good musician and solid lyricist.


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 Post subject: Re: Post-Riot Act Moneygrab
PostPosted: Tue November 05, 2013 4:42 pm 
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IlluminEddie wrote:
hlniv wrote:
The band reached a pinnacle in their belief that their own artistic expression was critically important following the release of Riot Act and subsequent tour. The bulk of 2004 and 2005 was their internal realization that they really weren't going to make a difference, and decided to solely focus on making money. Hence the self-titled re-branding with an image of an avocado.

Discuss



Riot Act was their worst album.

No. Not even close to their worst album. At the time it was released, yes. Now, a fair portion of PJ fans like it above No Code or maybe Vs. (I am not one of these). At the least, it is still clearly a more well done and better example of PJ than any of the last 3 records.


IlluminEddie wrote:
There really is a bit of a common theme there, so let me explain...

The key to all of the above was the political spin on each record and during each tour. The worse it got (see Riot Act) the worse the album was. S/T was full of it, but less in your face. Binaural only dealt with it in certain areas and did have some singles that were not war-related at all, but it began with Binaural because that's when Ed was actively pushing for Nader.

......So, to me, the pinnacle was really reached at Yield. It was slowly melting into Ed's political OCD post Yield.

As for selling out, I'd say they began the process when they left Sony. They realized it was their time to make buck. And they've been doing it ever since. Target, Ten Club, etc.


All of the rest of this is accurate. It began shifting towards new ground and political expression (albeit a creative expression that I particularly enjoy) with the 2000 election, and that ultimately burnt itself out around the time they got back from the 2003 tour, reflected, left Sony, etc... Was it based largely on Ed's personality and viewpoints? Probably, but not completely.

It took a couple years for them to realize they had a cash machine, and they could be both respectable rock stars and provide the good life for their families.

What i hope they come to understand is that the creative expression that fueled Binaural and Riot Act (not necessarily the political expression, but the creative fuel) is what still keeps many of their fans returning. I have rediscovered so much of their catalog just in the last year, and i just don't see me "re-discovering" the 2006-2013 output in 2023 like I have with their 1995-2003 output in 2013.

Oh, and by the way, i was 21 in 2000 and voting in my 1st presidential election. Ed convinced me to vote for Nader. Without his political grandstanding, I certainly would not have done that. Of course, I probably just wouldn't have voted at all...


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 Post subject: Re: Post-Riot Act Moneygrab
PostPosted: Tue November 05, 2013 4:47 pm 
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harmless wrote:
If PJ carry that instinct forward, as well as the instinct to write "Pendulum" et al, we might see better future days after all.

Or we may end up dying of boredom. Seriously, i don't dislike Pendulum at all but it's a risky area for them. I think i get why Yellow Moon almost didn't make the album. This songs benefit from being an exception rather than the rule. Especially with PJ because they really don't know how the explore the possibilities a song like this gives. You could really go anywhere musically from that intro.
I will try to explain my point with something that people who really like it tend to say - i wish it was longer. I doubt that means repeating a certain a couple of different bars 4 times. I don't think they're capable of writing more of this kind of songs without relying on clichés or citing themselves or both. How many people posted that Yellow Moon reminds them of Low Light?


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 Post subject: Re: Post-Riot Act Moneygrab
PostPosted: Tue November 05, 2013 4:48 pm 
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hlniv wrote:
It took a couple years for them to realize they had a cash machine

i think they had that figured out by 1992


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 Post subject: Re: Post-Riot Act Moneygrab
PostPosted: Tue November 05, 2013 4:54 pm 
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hlniv wrote:
stip wrote:
I hope they go back to that


Definitely correct.

You are getting more and more right each time you provide an answer here.

:hooray:


well that's how you learn stuff. by posting.

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