The board's server will undergo upgrade maintenance tonight, Nov 5, 2014, beginning approximately around 10 PM ET. Prepare for some possible down time during this process.
I don’t think punchy and polished suits them all that well on the whole. The songs I think sound much better live on Backspacer in part for that reason. That raw edge is needed a bit with them. Lightning Bolt I think suffers from a similar problem except where Backspacer seemed to draw inspiration from some place where they wanted some sort of pacing to the thing, LB just seems like an attempt to give us a Pearl Jam record by numbers - and this is the only album in their catalogue that is like that.
All that being said, I could say plenty to defend these albums. There are songs on both I quite enjoy when I hear them and I still listen to these albums from time to time.
I don’t think punchy and polished suits them all that well on the whole. The songs I think sound much better live on Backspacer in part for that reason. That raw edge is needed a bit with them. Lightning Bolt I think suffers from a similar problem except where Backspacer seemed to draw inspiration from some place where they wanted some sort of pacing to the thing, LB just seems like an attempt to give us a Pearl Jam record by numbers - and this is the only album in their catalogue that is like that.
All that being said, I could say plenty to defend these albums. There are songs on both I quite enjoy when I hear them and I still listen to these albums from time to time.
Well said about Backspacer live. I think that's right.
I know very well you are no casual Pearl Jam listener having read all those deep dives over the years, but I wanted to note that if I played say all of the Pearl Jam albums to someone who had never heard them before, I would likely expect to see roughly that ranking. That doesn’t minimize your experience with them, it is just something I find fascinating.
Pretty bang on! My best friend growing up was probably what you would consider a casual Pearl Jam fan at the time...he dug the first 3 albums then totally dropped them at No Code. To my surprise he actually discovered the self-titled album on his own and loved it, much more so than Binaural/Riot Act. I'm not sure how he feels about the last 3 but certainly if you were to ask him in 2006 he would have had Riot Act/Binaural and No Code at the bottom.
Joined: Thu December 13, 2012 6:31 pm Posts: 39892
those are the three albums that, for better or worse, find Eddie at his most muted, and for the fans of the early albums that dropped off, that, more than anything, is probably the decisive factor.
I don’t think punchy and polished suits them all that well on the whole. The songs I think sound much better live on Backspacer in part for that reason. That raw edge is needed a bit with them. Lightning Bolt I think suffers from a similar problem except where Backspacer seemed to draw inspiration from some place where they wanted some sort of pacing to the thing, LB just seems like an attempt to give us a Pearl Jam record by numbers - and this is the only album in their catalogue that is like that.
All that being said, I could say plenty to defend these albums. There are songs on both I quite enjoy when I hear them and I still listen to these albums from time to time.
I've given both Backspacer and Lightning Bolt full listens over the past week. And more than listening to their obviously better (and several truly great) albums, that's reminded me just how much I love the band. Those two are definitely at the bottom of my rankings, yet I thoroughly enjoyed having them on.
those are the three albums that, for better or worse, find Eddie at his most muted, and for the fans of the early albums that dropped off, that, more than anything, is probably the decisive factor.
I'm not sure I agree that Ed is muted on No Code. I get what you mean with the other two but No Code...?
There is no doubt that in the early 90s they lost some mainstream fans with Vitalogy (the uneven feel of the album, STBC as a single, etc), and then more with No Code (a further step away from Ten, WYA as a single, etc). Even if you loved Vitalogy, chances are No Code was a step away from that.
Out of those fans, some came back with Yield (DTE, GTF) and the 98 tour. And I can see why S/T also felt like a peak, with a more energy filled album.
But I think new fans now are much more likely to not have been fans in the early 90s at all. After all it’s been 30 years since Ten was released.
New fans will have a totally different experience.
Joined: Thu December 13, 2012 6:31 pm Posts: 39892
epilogue wrote:
stip wrote:
those are the three albums that, for better or worse, find Eddie at his most muted, and for the fans of the early albums that dropped off, that, more than anything, is probably the decisive factor.
I'm not sure I agree that Ed is muted on No Code. I get what you mean with the other two but No Code...?
Somebody had described the production as feeling underwater earlier. That's not a term I've used before but I know what they mean. There is a distance to Eddie's performance, less front and center to the songs than certainly Ten and Vs and probably Vitalogy - and the performances themselves are less powerful in that bellowy way that defined those earlier records (which is not intended as a value judgement, even if I prefer it). Listen to Elderly Woman and then Off He Goes or Around the Bend and you should be able to hear the distinction. That's what was lost.
There is also a Neil Young, nasally sort of influence that gets pretty prominent in a lot of No Code and Yield - Eddie's sound changes. It's one of several deviations throughout his career, but it was really one of the first major transitions (though it began in Vitalogy)
There is no doubt that in the early 90s they lost some mainstream fans with Vitalogy (the uneven feel of the album, STBC as a single, etc), and then more with No Code (a further step away from Ten, WYA as a single, etc). Even if you loved Vitalogy, chances are No Code was a step away from that.
Out of those fans, some came back with Yield (DTE, GTF) and the 98 tour. And I can see why S/T also felt like a peak, with a more energy filled album.
But I think new fans now are much more likely to not have been fans in the early 90s at all. After all it’s been 30 years since Ten was released.
New fans will have a totally different experience.
I'd agree with this, and I think it's the main reason why No Code/Yield probably have the best chance of a critical reassessment out of all of the post-early 90s records. The people who come to that record now (or at least came to it after its release) can do so with a bit of distance, and ability to see the band's story as extending beyond the early 90s. Even some of the posts in this thread who described people hating No Code seemed to frame them as being massive fans of Ten; of course, there's no way to know this, but I bet that's the more typical story for someone who puts that record at the bottom of their list, as opposed to someone who got to the party later.
I keep revisiting my rankings as the Madness tournament has gone on and I'm finding it harder and harder to find the "right" answer. I go back and forth too much. So, I'm just gonna do tiers. Each of the albums could be ranked in different variations within each respective tier; I'm listing them chronologically in each tier:
Tier 1: Ten Vitalogy Riot Act
These albums are perfect pieces of art. To me they are complete, satisfying experiences and I enjoy listening to these records front to back. They don't seem to falter in my estimation. I believe these records, though they each have highs and lows, are successful pieces that perfectly achieve what they set out to achieve. These are the all-timers, for me. Each one could be (or has been) my favorite PJ album at any given time. Finally, these are the ones that will show up on my greatest albums of all time list for the rest of my life, even as that list inevitably evolves.
Tier 2: Yield Gigaton
These are great records that are mostly successful but have one or two minor elements that work against them, keeping them from achieving the same level as the previous tier. If tier one are 5 stars, these albums are 4.5. Enjoyable albums that have one or two spots that lose me, even if only for a minute or two. They each have songs that I consider among the best the band have written/recorded/released but they also have songs that I think are really minor. I tend to be an album guy (meaning, I like to listen to albums more than singles) but these are albums where I to enjoy skipping around or skipping over songs from time to time.
Tier 3: Vs No Code Binaural Self-Titled
Complicated and messy records. On paper each of these *should* be a top tier album but they each have too many things that keep them down. No Code, for example is a perfect record (and the best thing Pearl Jam have done) right up until Habit. Then the second half of the record is a mixed bag with lows that are hard to overcome. I also still struggle with the production/sound of the record (which I know is an unpopular opinion). It has (what I've described before as) an underwater quality that I can't get past. When it works, it really works. But when it doesn't, it really doesn't. Some variation of that theme applies to each of the above records. Each record has songs I could flat do without (Leash, Habit, Grievance, Comatose). Though, each also contains contenders for best song in the PJ catalog. My love of Small Town, In My Tree, Insignificance, and Marker (for example) are well documented.
Tier 4: Backspacer Lightning Bolt
I have a fondness and appreciation for all of Pearl Jam's music. Even the songs at the bottom are songs I've listened to countless times and have given attention to over the years. The records in tier four have their moments but are mostly mediocre and labored efforts. Again, there are things I love about them but they just aren't up to the standards Pearl Jam has set for themselves and for listeners. They also don't add much to the band's sonic legacy. You could cut these, erase them entirely, and what the band is (at least in the studio) would be unaffected by the removal.
I'd swap Ten with Binaural, but these tiers seem right to me.
those are the three albums that, for better or worse, find Eddie at his most muted, and for the fans of the early albums that dropped off, that, more than anything, is probably the decisive factor.
I'm not sure I agree that Ed is muted on No Code. I get what you mean with the other two but No Code...?
Somebody had described the production as feeling underwater earlier. That's not a term I've used before but I know what they mean. There is a distance to Eddie's performance, less front and center to the songs than certainly Ten and Vs and probably Vitalogy - and the performances themselves are less powerful in that bellowy way that defined those earlier records (which is not intended as a value judgement, even if I prefer it). Listen to Elderly Woman and then Off He Goes or Around the Bend and you should be able to hear the distinction. That's what was lost.
There is also a Neil Young, nasally sort of influence that gets pretty prominent in a lot of No Code and Yield - Eddie's sound changes. It's one of several deviations throughout his career, but it was really one of the first major transitions (though it began in Vitalogy)
I'm the underwater guy, so, yes, I totally know what you mean. I was thinking of it in different terms. Your explanation makes a lot of sense and I get what you were getting at now.
I keep revisiting my rankings as the Madness tournament has gone on and I'm finding it harder and harder to find the "right" answer. I go back and forth too much. So, I'm just gonna do tiers. Each of the albums could be ranked in different variations within each respective tier; I'm listing them chronologically in each tier:
Tier 1: Ten Vitalogy Riot Act
These albums are perfect pieces of art. To me they are complete, satisfying experiences and I enjoy listening to these records front to back. They don't seem to falter in my estimation. I believe these records, though they each have highs and lows, are successful pieces that perfectly achieve what they set out to achieve. These are the all-timers, for me. Each one could be (or has been) my favorite PJ album at any given time. Finally, these are the ones that will show up on my greatest albums of all time list for the rest of my life, even as that list inevitably evolves.
Tier 2: Yield Gigaton
These are great records that are mostly successful but have one or two minor elements that work against them, keeping them from achieving the same level as the previous tier. If tier one are 5 stars, these albums are 4.5. Enjoyable albums that have one or two spots that lose me, even if only for a minute or two. They each have songs that I consider among the best the band have written/recorded/released but they also have songs that I think are really minor. I tend to be an album guy (meaning, I like to listen to albums more than singles) but these are albums where I to enjoy skipping around or skipping over songs from time to time.
Tier 3: Vs No Code Binaural Self-Titled
Complicated and messy records. On paper each of these *should* be a top tier album but they each have too many things that keep them down. No Code, for example is a perfect record (and the best thing Pearl Jam have done) right up until Habit. Then the second half of the record is a mixed bag with lows that are hard to overcome. I also still struggle with the production/sound of the record (which I know is an unpopular opinion). It has (what I've described before as) an underwater quality that I can't get past. When it works, it really works. But when it doesn't, it really doesn't. Some variation of that theme applies to each of the above records. Each record has songs I could flat do without (Leash, Habit, Grievance, Comatose). Though, each also contains contenders for best song in the PJ catalog. My love of Small Town, In My Tree, Insignificance, and Marker (for example) are well documented.
Tier 4: Backspacer Lightning Bolt
I have a fondness and appreciation for all of Pearl Jam's music. Even the songs at the bottom are songs I've listened to countless times and have given attention to over the years. The records in tier four have their moments but are mostly mediocre and labored efforts. Again, there are things I love about them but they just aren't up to the standards Pearl Jam has set for themselves and for listeners. They also don't add much to the band's sonic legacy. You could cut these, erase them entirely, and what the band is (at least in the studio) would be unaffected by the removal.
I'd swap Ten with Binaural, but these tiers seem right to me.
likes rhythmic things that butt up against each other
Joined: Mon January 07, 2013 7:58 pm Posts: 525
Higgs wrote:
You guys talk about "the casual fan" as if you meet these people on the daily. I don't think I've ever met anyone would fit that sort of description. At least, no one who would have any ability to discuss PJs albums at any level.
On my experience the (very very few) people I meet in real life who have any sort of opinion on Pearl Jam are either fanatical or totally non plussed.
I would enjoy meeting a "casual PJ fan" one day and having a chat with them.
I am that 'casual fan' to probably 50-100 bands, as is nearly everyone who consumes music. Why wouldn't PJ have a ton of these people?
You guys talk about "the casual fan" as if you meet these people on the daily. I don't think I've ever met anyone would fit that sort of description. At least, no one who would have any ability to discuss PJs albums at any level.
On my experience the (very very few) people I meet in real life who have any sort of opinion on Pearl Jam are either fanatical or totally non plussed.
I would enjoy meeting a "casual PJ fan" one day and having a chat with them.
I am that 'casual fan' to probably 50-100 bands, as is nearly everyone who consumes music. Why wouldn't PJ have a ton of these people?
I have a friend who I'd call a "casual fan" of Pearl Jam. He's mildly interested in their albums, but LOVES Binaural. It's easily his favorite album of theirs.
I brought him with me to the Toronto 2016 show, and before it started he asked me if I think they'll play anything off Binaural. I said "hopefully 1 or 2 songs, if we're lucky". Low and behold - they play the whole album! We both lost our minds.
Joined: Wed February 06, 2013 2:47 am Posts: 17534 Location: Scooby Doo
Farmer John wrote:
mkay0 wrote:
Higgs wrote:
You guys talk about "the casual fan" as if you meet these people on the daily. I don't think I've ever met anyone would fit that sort of description. At least, no one who would have any ability to discuss PJs albums at any level.
On my experience the (very very few) people I meet in real life who have any sort of opinion on Pearl Jam are either fanatical or totally non plussed.
I would enjoy meeting a "casual PJ fan" one day and having a chat with them.
I am that 'casual fan' to probably 50-100 bands, as is nearly everyone who consumes music. Why wouldn't PJ have a ton of these people?
I have a friend who I'd call a "casual fan" of Pearl Jam. He's mildly interested in their albums, but LOVES Binaural. It's easily his favorite album of theirs.
I brought him with me to the Toronto 2016 show, and before it started he asked me if I think they'll play anything off Binaural. I said "hopefully 1 or 2 songs, if we're lucky". Low and behold - they play the whole album! We both lost our minds.
likes rhythmic things that butt up against each other
Joined: Mon January 07, 2013 7:58 pm Posts: 525
Farmer John wrote:
mkay0 wrote:
Higgs wrote:
You guys talk about "the casual fan" as if you meet these people on the daily. I don't think I've ever met anyone would fit that sort of description. At least, no one who would have any ability to discuss PJs albums at any level.
On my experience the (very very few) people I meet in real life who have any sort of opinion on Pearl Jam are either fanatical or totally non plussed.
I would enjoy meeting a "casual PJ fan" one day and having a chat with them.
I am that 'casual fan' to probably 50-100 bands, as is nearly everyone who consumes music. Why wouldn't PJ have a ton of these people?
I have a friend who I'd call a "casual fan" of Pearl Jam. He's mildly interested in their albums, but LOVES Binaural. It's easily his favorite album of theirs.
I brought him with me to the Toronto 2016 show, and before it started he asked me if I think they'll play anything off Binaural. I said "hopefully 1 or 2 songs, if we're lucky". Low and behold - they play the whole album! We both lost our minds.
I have basically the opposite version of this story. I brought a buddy to a show, and he was semi-familiar with the discography when I told him I had tickets for us. He wanted to take the months between when I got tickets until the show to listen a ton and get ready. He made a serious commitment to it, and claims he listened to PJ pretty much every day. The album he really never got into was No Code. The show we went to together was Moline.
It's so weird. I've been listening to a version of No Code where All Night replaces Habit and it's just so SO SO fucking good. Habit, I'm Open, and Around the Bend really hold back the record for me. Which is nuts. I think it would be my favorite PJ record without those songs. And maybe also Mankind. Which I love but doesn't totally fit on a shortened version of the album.
Sometimes Hail Hail Who You Are In My Tree Smile Off He Goes All Night Red Mosquito Lukin Present Tense
Joined: Thu December 13, 2012 6:31 pm Posts: 39892
epilogue wrote:
It's so weird. I've been listening to a version of No Code where All Night replaces Habit and it's just so SO SO fucking good. Habit, I'm Open, and Around the Bend really hold back the record for me. Which is nuts. I think it would be my favorite PJ record without those songs. And maybe also Mankind. Which I love but doesn't totally fit on a shortened version of the album.
Sometimes Hail Hail Who You Are In My Tree Smile Off He Goes All Night Red Mosquito Lukin Present Tense
Is perfect.
To be fair, many albums improve when you just cut the three weakest songs and replace a fourth
But I agree - even as someone who likes Habit, No Code works better as a ten song unit. I'd keep habit, just drop Off he Goes, and keep Around the Bend at ten.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum
