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digster · **Joined:** Thu January 03, 2013 1:10 am **Posts:** 3896

Jeff and especially Stone are always really practical about how they talk about songwriting, which is always great; Ed often frames it in this ethereal way; I'm sure it has that feeling, but it's nice to get into the nuts-and-bolts of the writing.

RockPusher · **Posted:** Tue April 23, 2024 6:24 pm

digster wrote:

One of the things I learned from Josh Evans' podcast on State of Love and Trust is that much of Gigaton was cut with the full band; they just experimented and pulled songs apart for a long period of time afterward. But I don't really hear what others are hearing; those songs don't really sound anything like demos, beyond something like Comes and Goes, which it seems that leaving it that unadorned was a pretty clear choice.

I'm not making this up. Stone has talked about the two approaches and how they differed.

digster · **Joined:** Thu January 03, 2013 1:10 am **Posts:** 3896

For sure, the processes were very different.

VinylGuy · **Joined:** Tue January 01, 2013 5:10 pm **Posts:** 36369

digster wrote:

Jeff and especially Stone are always really practical about how they talk about songwriting, which is always great; Ed often frames it in this ethereal way; I'm sure it has that feeling, but it's nice to get into the nuts-and-bolts of the writing.

yeah, i love specially Stone´s sense of humor

Ledbetterdays · **Joined:** Tue January 29, 2013 3:45 am **Posts:** 195

mikejasond wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

mikejasond wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

I'm hearing a connection between the hopeful, maybe a little naive plea of "don't react, respond" and the more jaded, but wise and experienced admission of "deplore the dialogue / everybody else pays for someone else's mistake" -- and therefore sometimes reaction is necessary; it's almost like this album as a whole rides a wave (!!!!) from young expectation, to middle-aged complication, to death (Running), the legacies of hope and wisdom we want to leave behind (Something Special), to the "last one standing" (Got to Give) and the Setting Sun

it feels like a concept album of Pearl Jam busting out the gate, then growing, almost disappearing, but ultimately lasting

I took the "don't react, respond" thing to sort of be like the narrator desperately trying to do the type of thing you'd expect from counceling, to not just react in a fight in anger but take time to think and respond. (https://zenhabits.net/respond/)

But the frantic pace of the song is showing how difficult this is because of wild emotion, so it comes off more like a desperate self-plea to keep it together and not give in and make things worse.

Until Wreckage, where the narrator now legitimately no longer cares who was right because he realizes what he lost

yes to your react respond thoughts, but they need tempering with Dark Matter's thoughts, that sometimes a reaction and a riot is the only way to bring about change, even if "don't react" is wonderful advice to tell our internal selves as individuals; there's a time for everything

so yeah, Wreckage might be "the beginning of wisdom" on my wave timeline

Until now, Ive been thinking of Setting Sun as a black-esque desperate song, where the 'hopeful' parts at the end are just desperation.

But is it possible that Got to Give represents a turning point, where desperate and hurting and at a breaking point where the narrator needs to get over his wife ( or significant other) because he can't move on, what actually gives is he gives up on his anger and resentment, and decides to fight for the relationship? Unlike Wreckage where he says that he can't make her stay, in Got to Give he decides they are a team who can fight anything (In react/respond he also says "we could be fighting together instead of fighting ourselves", but the triumphant tone of Got to Give in contrast to the frantic tone of React/Respond maybe shows a change in the narrator's mindframe where he is no longer whining that they AREN'T, but determined to make it so they ARE). Like Got to Give is when he truly puts the baggage behind him and just decides instead of getting over her that he will get over himself and his self pity.

Maybe then Setting Sun IS positive, and maybe what i saw as desperate longing and bitter lamenting, is actually the narrator acknowledging with honesty the situation, becoming more enlightened, and being determined to work to put his pride behind him and fix their relationship legitimately. And maybe you can believe that might work.

Though Im still torn as even Setting Sun does have some lyrics that sound quite bitter, and "Am I the only one still hanging on?" still sounds like lamenting. And a darker interpretation is Got to Give and Setting Sun show the narrator's determination to keep his wife but it's too late, and he can't will her back to him just because he really wants it.

So you can read it either hopeful if you see the narrator's perspective or hopeless if you think the narrator is just like the "We belong together" in Black, and see the hopelessness that he does not see.

But if its the former interpretation that could mean that it is not about Eddie getting a divorce, but maybe he had marital problems and eventually fixed them, writing this album as a heightened version of this situation through the story of a couple splitting and then the narrator realizing he had to bring them back together.

ahh you are coming around!

mikejasond · **Joined:** Mon July 08, 2013 11:12 pm **Posts:** 3272

Ledbetterdays wrote:

mikejasond wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

mikejasond wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

I'm hearing a connection between the hopeful, maybe a little naive plea of "don't react, respond" and the more jaded, but wise and experienced admission of "deplore the dialogue / everybody else pays for someone else's mistake" -- and therefore sometimes reaction is necessary; it's almost like this album as a whole rides a wave (!!!!) from young expectation, to middle-aged complication, to death (Running), the legacies of hope and wisdom we want to leave behind (Something Special), to the "last one standing" (Got to Give) and the Setting Sun

it feels like a concept album of Pearl Jam busting out the gate, then growing, almost disappearing, but ultimately lasting

I took the "don't react, respond" thing to sort of be like the narrator desperately trying to do the type of thing you'd expect from counceling, to not just react in a fight in anger but take time to think and respond. (https://zenhabits.net/respond/)

But the frantic pace of the song is showing how difficult this is because of wild emotion, so it comes off more like a desperate self-plea to keep it together and not give in and make things worse.

Until Wreckage, where the narrator now legitimately no longer cares who was right because he realizes what he lost

yes to your react respond thoughts, but they need tempering with Dark Matter's thoughts, that sometimes a reaction and a riot is the only way to bring about change, even if "don't react" is wonderful advice to tell our internal selves as individuals; there's a time for everything

so yeah, Wreckage might be "the beginning of wisdom" on my wave timeline

Until now, Ive been thinking of Setting Sun as a black-esque desperate song, where the 'hopeful' parts at the end are just desperation.

But is it possible that Got to Give represents a turning point, where desperate and hurting and at a breaking point where the narrator needs to get over his wife ( or significant other) because he can't move on, what actually gives is he gives up on his anger and resentment, and decides to fight for the relationship? Unlike Wreckage where he says that he can't make her stay, in Got to Give he decides they are a team who can fight anything (In react/respond he also says "we could be fighting together instead of fighting ourselves", but the triumphant tone of Got to Give in contrast to the frantic tone of React/Respond maybe shows a change in the narrator's mindframe where he is no longer whining that they AREN'T, but determined to make it so they ARE). Like Got to Give is when he truly puts the baggage behind him and just decides instead of getting over her that he will get over himself and his self pity.

Maybe then Setting Sun IS positive, and maybe what i saw as desperate longing and bitter lamenting, is actually the narrator acknowledging with honesty the situation, becoming more enlightened, and being determined to work to put his pride behind him and fix their relationship legitimately. And maybe you can believe that might work.

Though Im still torn as even Setting Sun does have some lyrics that sound quite bitter, and "Am I the only one still hanging on?" still sounds like lamenting. And a darker interpretation is Got to Give and Setting Sun show the narrator's determination to keep his wife but it's too late, and he can't will her back to him just because he really wants it.

So you can read it either hopeful if you see the narrator's perspective or hopeless if you think the narrator is just like the "We belong together" in Black, and see the hopelessness that he does not see.

But if its the former interpretation that could mean that it is not about Eddie getting a divorce, but maybe he had marital problems and eventually fixed them, writing this album as a heightened version of this situation through the story of a couple splitting and then the narrator realizing he had to bring them back together.

ahh you are coming around!

I saw somebody say they saw Setting Sun as a reconciliation song and I didn't believe it but lately I am starting to acknowledge the possibility lol.....I can see that reading....like....

Scared of Fear
React / Respond

Breakup is ongoing, the narrator is self-involved and angry and the music is driving and frantic and tense. He's angry, resentful, self-involved ("you're hurting yourself just to hurt me"). He fears they are a 'setting sun', a dying romance. They could be fighting the world together, but they aren't, and he's angry. Trying to keep control and failing. The relationship is blowing up.

Wreckage

The song is suddenly calmer, the person has left, the narrator is left surrounded by memories of their life together. He no longer cares if he was wrong or right, he realizes what he lost. He laments that he can't make her stay if she doesn't want to. Once again we get sun imagery. Now she is a sun hidden behind the rain (I like this line...it evokes to me Black very strongly - in that song he says he knows she will have a beautiful life as a star in somebody else's sky while his world has turned to black. In this song, more artfully stated imo, the narrator is surrounded by gray and rain while his ex is the sun hidden away from him, carrying on as normal and lighting up other skies, while his world is gray. The narrator knows he screwed up.

Dark Matter

Could be a Trump song, could also be about the effect this has on others. Im leaning towards Trump here tbh.

Won't Tell

Now this one is interesting. I don't understand it. At first I thought some kind of affair or temptation from somebody else. Now I feel like the verses might be flashbacks to a time he opened himself up to his wife for the first time, he is remembering this, and wanting her to reach back out to him. He is waiting for her to initiate some reconciliation and remembering a time she opened him up. He doesn't want anybody else but her

Upper Hand

I think he is still lamenting over what is lost. Perhaps his apology is for his kids (just the two of you) or maybe its sarcastic directed at his ex. This song to me is very self-pitying. I think this song has imagery very similar to Wreckage, but IMO the narrator has turned even more bitter, even darker. brooding, wallowing.

Waiting for Stevie

A song that might very well be completely standalone. Or perhaps the narrator is dwelling both the actions of himself and his wife? Did he get into a dark place and not notice the love of those around him? Did she? Could this person in this song be his wife and he is showing sympathy and viewing her fondly and romanticizing her early life, is she the one who has trouble feeling love and he understands?

Running

I don't know, this might be political. It might be both. Anger at the tension and division and lashing out at the world. At the divided politics, at Trump, at the fighting in society and the fighting in his house.

Something Special

Eddie asserting his love for his daughters, perhaps to let them know they are still loved despite the problems their parents are facing. Its bittersweet as they are leaving. Is he dwelling on all that he's lost? Is this an apology to them, reminder they are still loved despite divorce? Or maybe this is what actually makes him once again remember the fond times he had with his wife, that they were a pair who raised these girls?

Got to Give

The narrator is at a breaking point. Time has passed and he is not over his wife/ex, he is breaking. Something has to give. He needs to move on or die because he can't go on like this anymore. In the end, maybe he does neither of them. He realizes that what he has to do is stop wallowing. Him and his wife could fight the world together. The song is triumphant, the first time on the album, despite the lyrics, and its because he's come to the realization that he's the one who has to make this happen. He believes in the two of them, and he is going to fight to stay together. He will forgive, he will do what it takes, but he is not going to give up and instead of brooding and pitying himself he will stand up, and make things right

Setting Sun

He is solemn, and realizes his failings, he realizes what he's done, has become self-aware. He knows he messed up, but he is not going to give up after all. He opened the album by saying they are a setting sun, but now he reframes it. They can also be a rising sun. He is going to rebuild and repair the relationship, and will not give up until they are together the way they are meant to be. He is going to make it work.

So I can see that interpretation of the album's journey, with the alternate interpretation being that it is a dark album and the end is desperate. I guess the hopeful reading gives the album more of a journey and story though

lvc · **Posted:** Tue April 23, 2024 6:56 pm

I'll say what I said to my oldest kid when he asked if I liked the record: What I really like is that the whole band is present on every song. There are no Eddie solo acoustic numbers. Not that those are bad, but I inevitably wish I heard the rest of the band contributing on them. The band always adds. This record feels written by the band, not just made by the band.

My first listen was on a CD player that may have sucked because the mix was insanely bass heavy and I could barely hear by the end of the record. I think Kevin Davis said he only listened at medium volume because of ear fatigue and I'm in that camp. Complain about Eddie's voice and guitar tones all I want, my ears are aging just as fast. :shock:

I love Mike's guitar work. I don't hear as much that is distinctively Stone. I really like the arrangements and band sound even on the songs I don't like as much. The entire record is pleasing to listen to and when it hits, it really HITS. A couple of songs elicited a head shake while muttering "well shit" in the car.

I guess Eddie Vedder's kids are older now because he's making up for lost time on the F bombs...

Overall, I liked Lightning Bolt. I liked Backspacer (it has some fond memories attached because my oldest as a toddler then and we listened to it in the house a lot). I liked 75% of Gigaton. Dark Matter is my favorite post-Riot Act record end to end.

Fattie_Vedder · **Joined:** Wed February 26, 2020 8:43 am **Posts:** 774

Force Of Nature wrote:

I have no issues to my untrained ears, however I feel like I can’t hear Jeff at all

What version are you listening to? Jeff is particularly buried in the Spotify mix, but he's more clear on the Apple Music version (both Atmos and no Atmos).

liebzz · **Joined:** Thu January 03, 2013 7:55 pm **Posts:** 7676

mikejasond wrote:

Ledbetterdays wrote:

mikejasond wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

mikejasond wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

I'm hearing a connection between the hopeful, maybe a little naive plea of "don't react, respond" and the more jaded, but wise and experienced admission of "deplore the dialogue / everybody else pays for someone else's mistake" -- and therefore sometimes reaction is necessary; it's almost like this album as a whole rides a wave (!!!!) from young expectation, to middle-aged complication, to death (Running), the legacies of hope and wisdom we want to leave behind (Something Special), to the "last one standing" (Got to Give) and the Setting Sun

it feels like a concept album of Pearl Jam busting out the gate, then growing, almost disappearing, but ultimately lasting

I took the "don't react, respond" thing to sort of be like the narrator desperately trying to do the type of thing you'd expect from counceling, to not just react in a fight in anger but take time to think and respond. (https://zenhabits.net/respond/)

But the frantic pace of the song is showing how difficult this is because of wild emotion, so it comes off more like a desperate self-plea to keep it together and not give in and make things worse.

Until Wreckage, where the narrator now legitimately no longer cares who was right because he realizes what he lost

yes to your react respond thoughts, but they need tempering with Dark Matter's thoughts, that sometimes a reaction and a riot is the only way to bring about change, even if "don't react" is wonderful advice to tell our internal selves as individuals; there's a time for everything

so yeah, Wreckage might be "the beginning of wisdom" on my wave timeline

Until now, Ive been thinking of Setting Sun as a black-esque desperate song, where the 'hopeful' parts at the end are just desperation.

But is it possible that Got to Give represents a turning point, where desperate and hurting and at a breaking point where the narrator needs to get over his wife ( or significant other) because he can't move on, what actually gives is he gives up on his anger and resentment, and decides to fight for the relationship? Unlike Wreckage where he says that he can't make her stay, in Got to Give he decides they are a team who can fight anything (In react/respond he also says "we could be fighting together instead of fighting ourselves", but the triumphant tone of Got to Give in contrast to the frantic tone of React/Respond maybe shows a change in the narrator's mindframe where he is no longer whining that they AREN'T, but determined to make it so they ARE). Like Got to Give is when he truly puts the baggage behind him and just decides instead of getting over her that he will get over himself and his self pity.

Maybe then Setting Sun IS positive, and maybe what i saw as desperate longing and bitter lamenting, is actually the narrator acknowledging with honesty the situation, becoming more enlightened, and being determined to work to put his pride behind him and fix their relationship legitimately. And maybe you can believe that might work.

Though Im still torn as even Setting Sun does have some lyrics that sound quite bitter, and "Am I the only one still hanging on?" still sounds like lamenting. And a darker interpretation is Got to Give and Setting Sun show the narrator's determination to keep his wife but it's too late, and he can't will her back to him just because he really wants it.

So you can read it either hopeful if you see the narrator's perspective or hopeless if you think the narrator is just like the "We belong together" in Black, and see the hopelessness that he does not see.

But if its the former interpretation that could mean that it is not about Eddie getting a divorce, but maybe he had marital problems and eventually fixed them, writing this album as a heightened version of this situation through the story of a couple splitting and then the narrator realizing he had to bring them back together.

ahh you are coming around!

I saw somebody say they saw Setting Sun as a reconciliation song and I didn't believe it but lately I am starting to acknowledge the possibility lol.....I can see that reading....like....

Scared of Fear
React / Respond

Breakup is ongoing, the narrator is self-involved and angry and the music is driving and frantic and tense. He's angry, resentful, self-involved ("you're hurting yourself just to hurt me"). He fears they are a 'setting sun', a dying romance. They could be fighting the world together, but they aren't, and he's angry. Trying to keep control and failing. The relationship is blowing up.

Wreckage

The song is suddenly calmer, the person has left, the narrator is left surrounded by memories of their life together. He no longer cares if he was wrong or right, he realizes what he lost. He laments that he can't make her stay if she doesn't want to. Once again we get sun imagery. Now she is a sun hidden behind the rain (I like this line...it evokes to me Black very strongly - in that song he says he knows she will have a beautiful life as a star in somebody else's sky while his world has turned to black. In this song, more artfully stated imo, the narrator is surrounded by gray and rain while his ex is the sun hidden away from him, carrying on as normal and lighting up other skies, while his world is gray. The narrator knows he screwed up.

Dark Matter

Could be a Trump song, could also be about the effect this has on others. Im leaning towards Trump here tbh.

Won't Tell

Now this one is interesting. I don't understand it. At first I thought some kind of affair or temptation from somebody else. Now I feel like the verses might be flashbacks to a time he opened himself up to his wife for the first time, he is remembering this, and wanting her to reach back out to him. He is waiting for her to initiate some reconciliation and remembering a time she opened him up. He doesn't want anybody else but her

Upper Hand

I think he is still lamenting over what is lost. Perhaps his apology is for his kids (just the two of you) or maybe its sarcastic directed at his ex. This song to me is very self-pitying. I think this song has imagery very similar to Wreckage, but IMO the narrator has turned even more bitter, even darker. brooding, wallowing.

Waiting for Stevie

A song that might very well be completely standalone. Or perhaps the narrator is dwelling both the actions of himself and his wife? Did he get into a dark place and not notice the love of those around him? Did she? Could this person in this song be his wife and he is showing sympathy and viewing her fondly and romanticizing her early life, is she the one who has trouble feeling love and he understands?

Running

I don't know, this might be political. It might be both. Anger at the tension and division and lashing out at the world. At the divided politics, at Trump, at the fighting in society and the fighting in his house.

Something Special

Eddie asserting his love for his daughters, perhaps to let them know they are still loved despite the problems their parents are facing. Its bittersweet as they are leaving. Is he dwelling on all that he's lost? Is this an apology to them, reminder they are still loved despite divorce? Or maybe this is what actually makes him once again remember the fond times he had with his wife, that they were a pair who raised these girls?

Got to Give

The narrator is at a breaking point. Time has passed and he is not over his wife/ex, he is breaking. Something has to give. He needs to move on or die because he can't go on like this anymore. In the end, maybe he does neither of them. He realizes that what he has to do is stop wallowing. Him and his wife could fight the world together. The song is triumphant, the first time on the album, despite the lyrics, and its because he's come to the realization that he's the one who has to make this happen. He believes in the two of them, and he is going to fight to stay together. He will forgive, he will do what it takes, but he is not going to give up and instead of brooding and pitying himself he will stand up, and make things right

Setting Sun

He is solemn, and realizes his failings, he realizes what he's done, has become self-aware. He knows he messed up, but he is not going to give up after all. He opened the album by saying they are a setting sun, but now he reframes it. They can also be a rising sun. He is going to rebuild and repair the relationship, and will not give up until they are together the way they are meant to be. He is going to make it work.

So I can see that interpretation of the album's journey, with the alternate interpretation being that it is a dark album and the end is desperate. I guess the hopeful reading gives the album more of a journey and story though

Now just think of this as not just the prism of the personal relationship, but as a metaphor for the larger division and re-establishing of unity in society, and I think we’re on to something. At least that’s how I see the more overtly political songs playing into this.

webbmexico · **Joined:** Tue April 23, 2024 6:57 pm **Posts:** 2

For the divorce gang:

https://www.westsideseattle.com/robinso ... alki-beach

VinylGuy · **Joined:** Tue January 01, 2013 5:10 pm **Posts:** 36369

yeah, i saw that on her instagram

mattyv1908 · **Joined:** Sun January 14, 2024 6:23 am **Posts:** 52

Those suggesting that Comes than Goes is an Ed Solo piece are nuts. There’s so much atmospheric sound going on throughout the song and if you haven’t heard it there’s only so many reasons:

a) your sound system is trash

b) your hearing is shot

c) you have a very untrained ear

I mentioned this 40 pages ago and I’ll say it again. A song like Pendulum or Comes than Goes is exactly the type of song that if it replaced Something Special this record would be nearly perfect.

Walker Bait · **Posted:** Tue April 23, 2024 7:18 pm

Today marks 5 years since losing my mom. I remember Avocado came out right when my dad passed, the mailman handed me my copy as the ambulance took my dad away... The band always seems to be there just at the right times... I just balled all the way through Dark Matter... My mom would have loved this album so much. Thanks for letting me vent for a moment.

Ms Harmless · **Posted:** Tue April 23, 2024 7:20 pm

mattyv1908 wrote:

Those suggesting that Comes than Goes is an Ed Solo piece are nuts. There’s so much atmospheric sound going on throughout the song and if you haven’t heard it there’s only so many reasons:

a) your sound system is trash

b) your hearing is shot

c) you have a very untrained ear

I mentioned this 40 pages ago and I’ll say it again. A song like Pendulum or Comes than Goes is exactly the type of song that if it replaced Something Special this record would be nearly perfect.

I don't need Something Special replacing but I do agree with you about Comes Then Goes, it's a Pearl Jam song

Force Of Nature · **Joined:** Tue February 06, 2024 8:22 pm **Posts:** 35

Fattie_Vedder wrote:

Force Of Nature wrote:

I have no issues to my untrained ears, however I feel like I can’t hear Jeff at all

What version are you listening to? Jeff is particularly buried in the Spotify mix, but he's more clear on the Apple Music version (both Atmos and no Atmos).

I’m in Spotify so that adds up. I’d YouTube any better? That’s all I’ve got really.

Ms Harmless · **Posted:** Tue April 23, 2024 7:24 pm

Force Of Nature wrote:

Fattie_Vedder wrote:

Force Of Nature wrote:

I have no issues to my untrained ears, however I feel like I can’t hear Jeff at all

What version are you listening to? Jeff is particularly buried in the Spotify mix, but he's more clear on the Apple Music version (both Atmos and no Atmos).

I’m in Spotify so that adds up. I’d YouTube any better? That’s all I’ve got really.

I have Amazon Music and Jeff is clear as day, both in Dolby and Stereo

Force Of Nature · **Joined:** Tue February 06, 2024 8:22 pm **Posts:** 35

I’m not even up to date on this stuff, I assume Amazon music and Apple Music are paid subscriptions? I’m clearly not going to pay as already have Spotify but if I can listen once or twice for free and hear the difference that’d be great.

mikejasond · **Joined:** Mon July 08, 2013 11:12 pm **Posts:** 3272

webbmexico wrote:

For the divorce gang:

https://www.westsideseattle.com/robinso ... alki-beach

Its really hard to say. They could be going through problems but still not making it public because you know, they have charity events that they are passionate about and they are still working together on it. They could have had marital problems and tensions or a rough spot that they then resolved. Or it can be a metaphor for other things, like societal divisions as the person above said, and they are perfectly fine.

Im not really sure (though I still feel a bit suspicious it is not personal to some level)

But either way I still think, whether metaphorically or not, this album tells the story of a narrator going through a divorce

Fattie_Vedder · **Joined:** Wed February 26, 2020 8:43 am **Posts:** 774

Force Of Nature wrote:

Fattie_Vedder wrote:

Force Of Nature wrote:

I have no issues to my untrained ears, however I feel like I can’t hear Jeff at all

What version are you listening to? Jeff is particularly buried in the Spotify mix, but he's more clear on the Apple Music version (both Atmos and no Atmos).

I’m in Spotify so that adds up. I’d YouTube any better? That’s all I’ve got really.

Not really, it's still pretty buried in the YouTube version. There is always the Trag remix, which sounds the best of all.

RockPusher · **Posted:** Tue April 23, 2024 7:31 pm

Walker Bait wrote:

Today marks 5 years since losing my mom. I remember Avocado came out right when my dad passed, the mailman handed me my copy as the ambulance took my dad away... The band always seems to be there just at the right times... I just balled all the way through Dark Matter... My mom would have loved this album so much. Thanks for letting me vent for a moment.

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